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经验与记忆之谜

The riddle of experience vs. memory | Daniel Kahneman

最近大家都在谈论着快乐。
Everybody talks about happiness these days.
在过去的五年里,我请人数了近年来有多本书的
I had somebody count the number of books
书名中提到“快乐”,
with “happiness” in the title published in the last five years
他们数到大约有40本,而且还有更多没数到的。
and they gave up after about 40, and there were many more.
现今越来越多研究者都开始对快乐
There is a huge wave of interest in happiness,
这个议题产生兴趣。
among researchers.
而且还有很多的“快乐教练”授课。
There is a lot of happiness coaching.
让其他人更快乐是他们的宗旨。
Everybody would like to make people happier.
虽然此类工作多如牛毛,
But in spite of all this flood of work,
但现仍存在几个认知上的陷阱,
there are several cognitive traps
这些陷阱将会增加使人领悟
that sort of make it almost impossible to think straight
快乐本质的难度。
about happiness.
我今天将主要谈论这些认知陷阱。
And my talk today will be mostly about these cognitive traps.
这些陷阱既会影响到一般人对自身快乐的观感,
This applies to laypeople thinking about their own happiness,
而且也会影响到学者对快乐的判断,
and it applies to scholars thinking about happiness,
因为人无完人,我们皆会出错。
because it turns out we’re just as messed up as anybody else is.
第一个陷阱是
The first of these traps
不愿意去承认快乐的复杂性。
is a reluctance to admit complexity.
事实证明快乐这个词
It turns out that the word “happiness”
已不再是常用词汇了,
is just not a useful word anymore,
因为我们已用其来诠释太多的事物了。
because we apply it to too many different things.
我想我们应该限定它的意思,
I think there is one particular meaning to which we might restrict it,
不过,一般而言,
but by and large,
我们得放弃这个想法
this is something that we’ll have to give up
并用更复杂的观点来看
and we’ll have to adopt the more complicated view
何谓快乐生活。
of what well-being is.
第二个陷阱是经验和记忆间的混淆:
The second trap is a confusion between experience and memory;
基本上这是在生活中体会快乐
basically, it’s between being happy in your life,
和觉得生活很快乐
and being happy about your life
以及对于你的生活满意之间的差别。
or happy with your life.
这两者的意义相距甚远,
And those are two very different concepts,
且在论及快乐时会混为一谈。
and they’re both lumped in the notion of happiness.
第三个陷阱则是聚焦错觉,
And the third is the focusing illusion,
令人遗憾的是,任何情况下,当我们想到一些
and it’s the unfortunate fact that we can’t think about any circumstance
关于快乐生活的情景时,
that affects well-being
我们势必会觉得它特别重要。
without distorting its importance.
我的意思是,这是一个真正的认知陷阱。
I mean, this is a real cognitive trap.
它避无可避。
There’s just no way of getting it right.
现在,我想以一个例子来开头,
Now, I’d like to start with an example
有个人上过我的课后
of somebody who had a question-and-answer session
于答问之时向我讲述了一则故事。
after one of my lectures reported a story,
[不清…]
and that was a story —
他说他有次在听交响乐时
He said he’d been listening to a symphony,
觉得音乐真是动听极了,
and it was absolutely glorious music
但在演奏快结束之时,
and at the very end of the recording,
却冒出了尖锐刺耳的声音。
there was a dreadful screeching sound.
接着他激动地表示
And then he added, really quite emotionally,
这就是一只老鼠坏了一锅粥。
it ruined the whole experience.
但事实并非如此。
But it hadn’t.
所发生的糟糕印象仅仅是对这段经验的记忆。
What it had ruined were the memories of the experience.
他经历了这段经验。
He had had the experience.
他也经历了20分钟的听觉盛会。
He had had 20 minutes of glorious music.
但现在都已无足轻重了,
They counted for nothing
因为他仅留下一段记忆;
because he was left with a memory;
就是那段糟糕的记忆,
the memory was ruined,
而其它20分钟的盛会则被完全遗忘了。
and the memory was all that he had gotten to keep.
这告诉我们,
What this is telling us, really,
我们在思考自己和别人时,
is that we might be thinking of ourselves and of other people
用了两种自我。
in terms of two selves.
第一种则为经验自我,
There is an experiencing self,
这种自我活在当下,
who lives in the present
洞察当下,
and knows the present,
同时也能回味过往,
is capable of re-living the past,
但基本上他只属于当下。
but basically it has only the present.
一般医生接触的皆是经验自我–
It’s the experiencing self that the doctor approaches —
正如,当医生问你,
you know, when the doctor asks,
“我碰你这里时会疼么?”
“Does it hurt now when I touch you here?”
另一个自我则是记忆自我,
And then there is a remembering self,
他负责记录生活,
and the remembering self is the one that keeps score,
抒写生活故事,
and maintains the story of our life,
医生要找他时
and it’s the one that the doctor approaches
会这么问,
in asking the question,
“最近感觉如何?”
“How have you been feeling lately?”
或“去阿尔巴尼亚好玩么?”等类似的问题。
or “How was your trip to Albania?” or something like that.
经验自我和记忆自我
Those are two very different entities,
是截然不同的,
the experiencing self and the remembering self,
两者的混淆是导致我们不懂快乐的
and getting confused between them is part of the mess
部分原因。
about the notion of happiness.
记忆自我
Now, the remembering self
负责讲述故事。
is a storyteller.
故事从记忆中直接撷取–
And that really starts with a basic response of our memories —
即时上传。
it starts immediately.
并不是我们在讲我们要讲的故事。
We don’t only tell stories when we set out to tell stories.
是我们的记忆在讲故事,
Our memory tells us stories,
它是我们从经验中储存下来的
that is, what we get to keep from our experiences
故事。
is a story.
让我用一个例子开始。
And let me begin with one example.
这是一个古老的研究。
This is an old study.
一些真正的病人将会接受一种痛苦的治疗方法。
Those are actual patients undergoing a painful procedure.
细节不再详述。现今的疗法已不再如此难受,
I won’t go into detail. It’s no longer painful these days,
但在研究进行的九十年代时,这种方法令人痛不欲生。
but it was painful when this study was run in the 1990s.
病人每隔六十秒则必须报告他们的痛苦指数。
They were asked to report on their pain every 60 seconds.
这边有两位病患。
Here are two patients,
这是他们的记录。
those are their recordings.
我问你:“在他们之中谁最痛苦?”
And you are asked, “Who of them suffered more?”
这个问题很简单。
And it’s a very easy question.
显然,是病人B。
Clearly, Patient B suffered more —
他的结肠镜检查时间较长,
his colonoscopy was longer,
病人A每分钟感觉的痛疼
and every minute of pain that Patient A had,
病人B也感觉到了,而且持续更久。
Patient B had, and more.
但现在还有另一个问题:
But now there is another question:
这些患者认为他们受罪了吗?
“How much did these patients think they suffered?”
这里有个小意外:
And here is a surprise.
令人惊讶的是病人A
The surprise is that Patient A
对结肠镜检查的记忆比病人B
had a much worse memory of the colonoscopy
还糟糕。
than Patient B.
两段结肠镜检查的故事不同,
The stories of the colonoscopies were different,
这关键在于故事的结尾–
and because a very critical part of the story is how it ends.
两个故事都不怎么启迪智慧–
And neither of these stories is very inspiring or great —
但两者显然是不同的…(笑声)
but one of them is this distinct … (Laughter)
显然其中之一的感受比另一个还差。
but one of them is distinctly worse than the other.
感觉较糟的这一个
And the one that is worse
是在最后的时期里知晓什么是痛绝人寰。
is the one where pain was at its peak at the very end;
这不是个好故事。
it’s a bad story.
我们是怎么知道的?
How do we know that?
因为我们在检查结束后问他们,
Because we asked these people after their colonoscopy,
以及在很久之后再问一次他们,
and much later, too,
“你们对结肠镜检查的整体印象如何?”
“How bad was the whole thing, in total?”
结果是A的记忆感觉明显要比B更糟糕。
And it was much worse for A than for B, in memory.
现在这是经验自我和记忆自我
Now this is a direct conflict
之间的直接冲突。
between the experiencing self and the remembering self.
从经验自我的角度来看,
From the point of view of the experiencing self,
病人B显然是比较难受的。
clearly, B had a worse time.
那么病人A的情况该如何解释,
Now, what you could do with Patient A,
我们实际做了一个临床试验,
and we actually ran clinical experiments,
当实验完成时,我们也得到了预期的结果,
and it has been done, and it does work —
事实上我们可以延长病人A的检查时间
you could actually extend the colonoscopy of Patient A
从而减缓导管的震动程度。
by just keeping the tube in without jiggling it too much.
虽然病人还是会疼,
That will cause the patient
但已减轻
to suffer, but just a little
许多了。
and much less than before.
假如继续这样下去,
And if you do that for a couple of minutes,
你将会使病人A的经验自我的
you have made the experiencing self
感觉更糟,
of Patient A worse off,
但病人A的记忆自我
and you have the remembering self of Patient A
则会感觉好多了,
a lot better off,
因为你给了病人A
because now you have endowed Patient A
一个好一点的故事,
with a better story
一个好一点记忆他病痛经历的故事。
about his experience.
怎样给故事定义好坏?
What defines a story?
并且记忆告诉我们的故事
And that is true of the stories
是真实的,
that memory delivers for us,
我们讲述的故事也是真的。
and it’s also true of the stories that we make up.
故事的好坏取决于高潮时分
What defines a story are changes,
及结尾时刻。
significant moments and endings.
结尾是非常重要的,
Endings are very, very important
上面的这个故事就是由结尾所主导的。
and, in this case, the ending dominated.
现在,经验自我
Now, the experiencing self
延续这个生活经验。
lives its life continuously.
他也拥有片刻的经验,一个接一个。
It has moments of experience, one after the other.
你会问:“这些片刻怎么了?”
And you can ask: What happens to these moments?
答案很简单。
And the answer is really straightforward:
他们永远消失了。
They are lost forever.
我们生活中的大多片刻–
I mean, most of the moments of our life —
我算了算–从心理学角度来说
and I calculated, you know, the psychological present
仅仅只是三秒长。
is said to be about three seconds long;
这意味着
that means that, you know,
人一生中大约有六亿个片刻。
in a life there are about 600 million of them;
一个月里则大约有六十万个片刻。
in a month, there are about 600,000 —
它们大多不留痕迹。
most of them don’t leave a trace.
大多数皆被记忆自我
Most of them are completely ignored
全然忽视了。
by the remembering self.
然而,你现在亦应发现
And yet, somehow you get the sense
一些感觉被储存,
that they should count,
因为我们经验中的每分每秒合在一起
that what happens during these moments of experience
就构成了我们的人生。
is our life.
只要我们活着,
It’s the finite resource that we’re spending
我们就会消耗这些有限的资源。
while we’re on this earth.
该如何使用它们,
And how to spend it
似乎是很重要的,
would seem to be relevant,
但这不是记忆自我
but that is not the story
所留给我们的故事。
that the remembering self keeps for us.
因此记忆自我
So we have the remembering self
和经验自我
and the experiencing self,
是很好区别的。
and they’re really quite distinct.
他们之间的最大不同
The biggest difference between them
是在于处理时间的方式。
is in the handling of time.
就经验自我而言,
From the point of view of the experiencing self,
如果你有一个假期,
if you have a vacation,
第二周和第一周同等快乐,
and the second week is just as good as the first,
那么两周下来
then the two-week vacation
快乐的分量是一周假期的两倍多。
is twice as good as the one-week vacation.
然而记忆自我则不是这样算的。
That’s not the way it works at all for the remembering self.
对记忆自我来说,两周假期
For the remembering self, a two-week vacation
并不比一周假期多多少,
is barely better than the one-week vacation
因为期间没有任何新记忆的加入。
because there are no new memories added.
故事的剧情依然如旧。
You have not changed the story.
因此
And in this way,
时间是区分
time is actually the critical variable
记忆自我和经验自我的
that distinguishes a remembering self
关键因素。
from an experiencing self;
时间对这个故事的影响不大。
time has very little impact on the story.
记忆自我所做的
Now, the remembering self does more
不仅是记忆和讲述故事。
than remember and tell stories.
它也是真正做决定的因素,
It is actually the one that makes decisions
因为,假若你的病人已经历
because, if you have a patient who has had, say,
过两位不同的外科医生来做胃肠镜检查,
two colonoscopies with two different surgeons
而现在决定从他们中选一位来再做检查时,
and is deciding which of them to choose,
病人选的将会是
then the one that chooses
记忆中感觉比较好的那位,
is the one that has the memory that is less bad,
这就是如何选定医生的。
and that’s the surgeon that will be chosen.
经验自我
The experiencing self
在做选择是则无从置喙。
has no voice in this choice.
事实上,我们不会在两段经验中做选择。
We actually don’t choose between experiences,
我们是在两种不同经验的记忆中做出选择。
we choose between memories of experiences.
而且当我们设想未来时,
And even when we think about the future,
一般我们不会以经验的形式去思考。
we don’t think of our future normally as experiences.
我们把未来
We think of our future
以预想的记忆形式呈现。
as anticipated memories.
大体上你可以看到,
And basically you can look at this,
记忆自我是专制的,
you know, as a tyranny of the remembering self,
你可以想象记忆自我
and you can think of the remembering self
在拽着经验自我,
sort of dragging the experiencing self
他是通过经验自我不要的经验
through experiences that
来拽着经验自我的。
the experiencing self doesn’t need.
我有个想法,
I have that sense that
当我们放假时
when we go on vacations
往往
this is very frequently the case;
之所以放假,
that is, we go on vacations,
有很大一部分
to a very large extent,
是为了记忆自我。
in the service of our remembering self.
我想这有点难来辩证。
And this is a bit hard to justify I think.
我们使用了多少的记忆?
I mean, how much do we consume our memories?
这可以解释
That is one of the explanations
记忆自我
that is given for the dominance
为何能成为主导的自我。
of the remembering self.
这让我想起一次假期,
And when I think about that, I think about a vacation
几年前在南极度过的假期,
we had in Antarctica a few years ago,
这可以说是我最棒的一个假期,
which was clearly the best vacation I’ve ever had,
与其它假期相比,
and I think of it relatively often,
我常常会想起这个假期。
relative to how much I think of other vacations.
这趟旅程大概让我用掉了
And I probably have consumed
三周的记忆量,
my memories of that three-week trip, I would say,
大概仅在过去四年中占了约25分钟。
for about 25 minutes in the last four years.
现在,如我打开资料夹
Now, if I had ever opened the folder
里面大概有600张相片,
with the 600 pictures in it,
我可能要花一个小时来回忆。
I would have spent another hour.
三周的旅程
Now, that is three weeks,
最多只用一个半小时来回忆。
and that is at most an hour and a half.
这似乎不成比例啊。
There seems to be a discrepancy.
这让我有点不满,
Now, I may be a bit extreme, you know,
因为我记得真是太少了,
in how little appetite I have for consuming memories,
不过就算你记得再多
but even if you do more of this,
这里也会有个实际的问题。
there is a genuine question:
为什么我们用来记忆
Why do we put so much weight on memory
比依赖经验还多?
relative to the weight that we put on experiences?
所以我希望你能思考
So I want you to think
一个有关思考的实验。
about a thought experiment.
假使你的下一个假期,
Imagine that for your next vacation,
当你知道假期结束后
you know that at the end of the vacation
假期中所有的相片将被销毁时,
all your pictures will be destroyed,
而你也会吞下一颗遗忘药
and you’ll get an amnesic drug
以使你遗忘一切。
so that you won’t remember anything.
这样,你还会想过同样的假期么?(笑声)
Now, would you choose the same vacation? (Laughter)
如果你选了个不同的假期,
And if you would choose a different vacation,
你的两个自我之间将会产生冲突,
there is a conflict between your two selves,
你得想法来裁决这场冲突,
and you need to think about how to adjudicate that conflict,
这并不怎么容易,
and it’s actually not at all obvious, because
因为假若你仅考虑时间
if you think in terms of time,
你会得到一个答案。
then you get one answer,
但若仅考虑记忆
and if you think in terms of memories,
你会得到另外一个答案。
you might get another answer.
我们为什么要选此而非彼,
Why do we pick the vacations we do
这个困扰我们的问题
is a problem that confronts us
是需要在两个自我之间作出选择。
with a choice between the two selves.
现在,两个自我
Now, the two selves
带来对快乐的两种不同见解。
bring up two notions of happiness.
这两种对快乐的见解
There are really two concepts of happiness
分别对应了两个自我。
that we can apply, one per self.
因此你会问:“经验自我是有多快乐?”
So you can ask: How happy is the experiencing self?
接着你会问:“经验自我的每一刻
And then you would ask: How happy are the moments
有多快乐?”
in the experiencing self’s life?
这些快乐时刻的组成过程
And they’re all — happiness for moments
是异常复杂的。
is a fairly complicated process.
情感该如何测量?
What are the emotions that can be measured?
顺带一提,我们现在
And, by the way, now we are capable
对于经验自我会随着时间而感受快乐
of getting a pretty good idea
已经有了一个粗浅的概念了。
of the happiness of the experiencing self over time.
而记忆自我所指的快乐
If you ask for the happiness of the remembering self,
则是完全两码事。
it’s a completely different thing.
这并不是一个人生活多快乐的问题。
This is not about how happily a person lives.
而是它对自己的人生
It is about how satisfied or pleased the person is
有多满意和多喜欢的问题。
when that person thinks about her life.
迥然不同的见解。
Very different notion.
若不能分辨这两种见解
Anyone who doesn’t distinguish those notions
就无法参透快乐这门学问,
is going to mess up the study of happiness,
我和其他活得好的学生一样,
and I belong to a crowd of students of well-being,
一直以来都研究不透快乐,
who’ve been messing up the study of happiness for a long time
就是因为这个原因。
in precisely this way.
近年来,
The distinction between the
经验自我的快乐
happiness of the experiencing self
和记忆自我的满足的
and the satisfaction of the remembering self
差异性已能分清,
has been recognized in recent years,
目前正努力来分别测度两者,
and there are now efforts to measure the two separately.
盖洛普公司最近在全世界举行了一场民意调查,
The Gallup Organization has a world poll
其中逾五十万人
where more than half a million people
都被问及一个类似的问题,
have been asked questions
那就是他们如何看待他们的生活
about what they think of their life
和如何看待他们的经验。
and about their experiences,
除了这个问题,这个公司还做了其它的调查。
and there have been other efforts along those lines.
近年来,我们逐渐得知
So in recent years, we have begun to learn
关于两种快乐见解的信息。
about the happiness of the two selves.
我认为我们主要学到的便是
And the main lesson I think that we have learned
两者是天壤之别的。
is they are really different.
虽然你可以得知一个人对生活是否满意,
You can know how satisfied somebody is with their life,
但却无法告诉你
and that really doesn’t teach you much
他们平常活的有多快乐,
about how happily they’re living their life,
而反之亦然。
and vice versa.
只是为了让你对其中的关联性有个基本概念,
Just to give you a sense of the correlation,
它们之间大概只有50%关联。
the correlation is about .5.
意思是当你见到某个人时,
What that means is if you met somebody,
你被告知他的爸爸有六尺高,
and you were told, “Oh his father is six feet tall,”
你能知道这个人有多高么?
how much would you know about his height?
好吧,你可能有个基本概念,
Well, you would know something about his height,
但非常不确定。
but there’s a lot of uncertainty.
你无法下判定。
You have that much uncertainty.
若我说有人给自己的生活质量打分,他打8/10分,
If I tell you that somebody ranked their life eight on a scale of ten,
你也不能把握
you have a lot of uncertainty
他们的经验自我
about how happy they are
有多么快乐。
with their experiencing self.
所以关联性很低。
So the correlation is low.
我们知道什么能够
We know something about what controls
让人的快乐得到满足。
satisfaction of the happiness self.
我们知道钱是很重要的,
We know that money is very important,
目标也非常重要。
goals are very important.
我们知道要快乐是需要通过
We know that happiness is mainly
我们所喜爱的人来满足,
being satisfied with people that we like,
是需要花时间和他们待在一起来满足。
spending time with people that we like.
虽然还有其它因素,但这是主要因素。
There are other pleasures, but this is dominant.
所以假若你想让两个自我都快乐,
So if you want to maximize the happiness of the two selves,
你必须抛弃旧习
you are going to end up
且要做些与众不同的事。
doing very different things.
我说的是,我们至少
The bottom line of what I’ve said here
不应把快乐当成活得好的
is that we really should not think of happiness
代名词。
as a substitute for well-being.
这两者是天壤之别的。
It is a completely different notion.
现在,很快地讨论下
Now, very quickly,
另一个我们不能理解快乐本质的原因,
another reason we cannot think straight about happiness
那就是我们怎么看生活
is that we do not attend to the same things
和我们怎么过生活是不一样的。
when we think about life, and we actually live.
所以,当你问加州的人有多快乐时,
So, if you ask the simple question of how happy people are in California,
你将无法得到正确答案。
you are not going to get to the correct answer.
因为当你这样问时,
When you ask that question,
你认为加州人一定过得比较快乐,
you think people must be happier in California
而你则住在俄亥俄州。
if, say, you live in Ohio.
(笑声)
(Laughter)
当你在想
And what happens is
住在加州有多快乐时,
when you think about living in California,
你会想到加州和其他州域
you are thinking of the contrast
之间的差异性,
between California and other places,
譬如,气候。
and that contrast, say, is in climate.
事实证明气候条件
Well, it turns out that climate
对于经验自我并非很重要
is not very important to the experiencing self
而且对于思考自我
and it’s not even very important to the reflective self
衡量自己有多快乐也不太重要。
that decides how happy people are.
不过,既然现实由思考自我主导,
But now, because the reflective self is in charge,
一些人可能会得到这样一种结论,
you may end up — some people may end up
那就是搬到加州。
moving to California.
他们搬去加州是为了过上更快乐的生活,
And it’s sort of interesting to trace what is going to happen
是而追踪观看他们的后续发展,将会是一件相当有趣的事。
to people who move to California in the hope of getting happier.
他们的经验自我
Well, their experiencing self
是不会变得更快乐。
is not going to get happier.
这我们都知道。
We know that.
不过当一件事发生后,他们会觉得自己快乐多了。
But one thing will happen: They will think they are happier,
因为在他们思考时,
because, when they think about it,
他们会回想起俄亥俄州的坏天气。
they’ll be reminded of how horrible the weather was in Ohio,
他们也因此觉得他们做出了正确的决定。
and they will feel they made the right decision.
要理解快乐生活
It is very difficult
实在很难,
to think straight about well-being,
我希望我已经让你们对此有个基本概念,
and I hope I have given you a sense
并且明白这个过程到底有多难。
of how difficult it is.
谢谢。
Thank you.
(鼓掌)
(Applause)
克里斯·安德森:谢谢您的演讲。我有个问题想请教您。
Chris Anderson: Thank you. I’ve got a question for you.
非常感谢您的演说。
Thank you so much.
几星期前,我们有过一次电话通讯,
Now, when we were on the phone a few weeks ago,
当时您提到您从盖洛普的调查中
you mentioned to me that there was quite an interesting result
发现了一个有趣的现象。
came out of that Gallup survey.
请问您可以跟我们分享一下吗?
Is that something you can share
我们还有几分钟的时间。
since you do have a few moments left now?
丹尼尔·卡纳曼:没问题。
Daniel Kahneman: Sure.
我从盖洛普调查中发现了一个极有趣的数字,
I think the most interesting result that we found in the Gallup survey
能发现它实属意外。
is a number, which we absolutely did not expect to find.
我们发现一个关于
We found that with respect to the happiness
经验自我的快乐的现象。
of the experiencing self.
那就是人的感觉
When we looked at how feelings,
会随收入的多少而变化。
vary with income.
结果表明,对于年收入低于六万美元的
And it turns out that, below an income
美国人而言,
of 60,000 dollars a year, for Americans —
这占了样本中的很大一部分,
and that’s a very large sample of Americans, like 600,000,
将近有六十万人,这些人是相当具有指标性的,
so it’s a large representative sample —
这些年收入低于六十万美元……
below an income of 600,000 dollars a year…
安德森:是六万美元。
CA: 60,000.
卡纳曼:六万美元。
DK: 60,000.
(笑声)
(Laughter)
年收入六万美元的人是不快乐的,
60,000 dollars a year, people are unhappy,
而且收入越低,他们则逾不快乐。
and they get progressively unhappier the poorer they get.
而当收入逾六万时,我们则得到一条标准水平线。
Above that, we get an absolutely flat line.
难得看到这么平坦的线。
I mean I’ve rarely seen lines so flat.
显然
Clearly, what is happening is
金钱是无法买到经验自我的快乐,
money does not buy you experiential happiness,
但没钱却的确能给你带来悲郁的境况,
but lack of money certainly buys you misery,
而且我们清楚地测到痛苦的程度,
and we can measure that misery
非常清楚。
very, very clearly.
对于另一个自我,记忆自我而言。
In terms of the other self, the remembering self,
你则有了一个大相迳庭的故事。
you get a different story.
你赚的越多,你就越满意。
The more money you earn, the more satisfied you are.
这跟情感没有任何关联。
That does not hold for emotions.
安德森:可是丹尼,生命、自由和追求快乐
CA: But Danny, the whole American endeavor is about
是所有美国人奋斗的目标。
life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
假若大家都认真对待这一发现,
If people took seriously that finding,
那么,这将颠覆我们
I mean, it seems to turn upside down
固有的观念,例如,
everything we believe about, like for example,
课税政策等。
taxation policy and so forth.
这个国家的政治人物有没有可能
Is there any chance that politicians, that the country generally,
会正视这样的发现
would take a finding like that seriously
并且依次施政?
and run public policy based on it?
卡纳曼:我认为已有人认知到研究快乐
DK: You know I think that there is recognition
于谋划政策中的地位。
of the role of happiness research in public policy.
但这项认知于美国的传播速度颇慢,
The recognition is going to be slow in the United States,
这是毋庸置疑的,
no question about that,
但在英国,它正持续发酵,
but in the U.K., it is happening,
其他国家亦然。
and in other countries it is happening.
一般人也开始认知到
People are recognizing that they ought
在谋划政策时
to be thinking of happiness
亦应将快乐纳入考量指标。
when they think of public policy.
虽然这将花些时间,
It’s going to take a while,
但人们也将开始思考。
and people are going to debate
他们要的是经验的快乐
whether they want to study experience happiness,
抑或是为生活打分,
or whether they want to study life evaluation,
因此很快,我们将要理解这个问题。
so we need to have that debate fairly soon.
如何增进快乐,
How to enhance happiness
有好几种方式,但事关你是怎么想的,
goes very different ways depending on how you think,
你想的是记忆自我
and whether you think of the remembering self
还是在想经验自我。
or you think of the experiencing self.
我想于几年之内,这将影响政策的实施。
This is going to influence policy, I think, in years to come.
美国已经付出巨大的努力来衡量
In the United States, efforts are being made
大众的经验的快乐。
to measure the experience happiness of the population.
我想在十年或二十年内,
This is going to be, I think, within the next decade or two,
这将会成为国家统计数据的一部分。
part of national statistics.
安德森:这个议题对于我来说
CA: Well, it seems to me that this issue will — or at least should be —
将会是未来几年里
the most interesting policy discussion to track
最有的一个政策讨论议题。
over the next few years.
非常感谢您所创造的行为经济学。
Thank you so much for inventing behavioral economics.
非常感谢丹尼尔·卡纳曼。
Thank you, Danny Kahneman.

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