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精神病和正常人之间有明确边界吗 – 译学馆
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精神病和正常人之间有明确边界吗

Strange answers to the psychopath test | Jon Ronson

故事是这样的:我当时在一个朋友的家里
The story starts: I was at a friend’s house,
她书架上有一本《精神病诊断与统计手册》
and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual,
就是一本关于精神病的手册
which is the manual of mental disorders.
上面列出了已知的所有精神病症状
It lists every known mental disorder.
而它在50年代的时候还只是一本薄薄的小册子
And it used to be, back in the ’50s, a very slim pamphlet.
之后越来越多 越变越厚
And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,
现在已经有886页了
and now it’s 886 pages long.
目前该手册列举了374种精神疾病
And it lists currently 374 mental disorders.
当我迅速翻阅的时候
So I was leafing through it,
我就在想是否自己患有什么精神疾病
wondering if I had any mental disorders,
结果证明我患了12种精神疾病
and it turns out I’ve got 12.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
我患了泛焦虑症
I’ve got generalized anxiety disorder,
这是先天的
which is a given.
我有梦魇症
I’ve got nightmare disorder,
书上是这么划分梦魇症的
which is categorized
周期性地梦见自己被追赶或是被宣布失败
if you have recurrent dreams of beingpursued or declared a failure,
而我所有的梦境里都是有人在大街上追我
and all my dreams involve peoplechasing me down the street
向我喊 “你太失败了”
going, “You’re a failure!”
[笑声]
(Laughter)
我还有亲子关系问题
I’ve got parent-child relational problems,
这一点我赖我的父母
which I blame my parents for.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
我开玩笑的 然而并没有
I’m kidding. I’m not kidding.
真是开玩笑的
I’m kidding.
我还患有诈病症
And I’ve got malingering.
不过我觉得同时患有诈病症和泛焦虑症
And I think it’s actually quite rare to have both malingering
还是很罕见的
and generalized anxiety disorder,
因为诈病症会让我非常焦虑
because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious.
不管怎么说吧 当我看这本书的时候
Anyway, I was looking through this book,
我就在想自己会不会比想象中的更加疯
wondering if I was much crazierthan I thought I was,
或许自我确诊为精神病不太合适
or maybe it’s not a good idea to diagnoseyourself with a mental disorder
尤其是你未经过专业训练的情况下
if you’re not a trained professional,
或许精神科医生有一种奇怪的欲望
or maybe the psychiatry professionhas a kind of strange desire
给一种本质上的正常行为贴上精神错乱的标签
to label what’s essentially normalhuman behavior as a mental disorder.
我不知道哪种想法是对的
I didn’t know which of these was true,
但是我觉得这挺有趣的
but I thought it was kind of interesting,
后来我觉得应该见见精神病学批评家
and then I thought maybe I shouldmeet a critic of psychiatry
听听他们的想法
to get their view,
所以我就和科学论派的鼓吹者一起吃午餐
which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
有个男子叫布莱恩 带着一队一流的科学论鼓吹者
It was a man called Brian,who runs a crack team of Scientologists
他们随时随地准备摧毁精神病学
who are determined to destroypsychiatry wherever it lies.
他们被称为公民人权委员会(CCHR)
They’re called the CCHR.
我就问他:你能向我证明吗?
And I said to him, “Can you prove to me
证明精神病学其实是不能相信的伪科学
that psychiatry is a pseudo-sciencethat can’t be trusted?”
他说:是的 我们可以向你证明
And he said, “Yes, we can prove it to you.”
我说:怎么证明?
And I said, “How?”
他说:我们会向你介绍托尼
And he said, “We’re going to introduce you to Tony.”
我问:谁是托尼?
And I said, “Who’s Tony?”
他说:托尼在布罗德莫
And he said, “Tony’s in Broadmoor.”
现在 布罗德莫就是布罗德莫医院
Now, Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital.
它曾经以收容犯罪性精神病人而闻名
It used to be known as the BroadmoorAsylum for the Criminally Insane.
连环杀手被送到那里
It’s where they send the serial killers,
还有那些无法自控的人也被送去
and the people who can’t help themselves.
我对布莱恩说:那好吧 托尼做什么了吗?
And I said to Brian, “Well, what did Tony do?”
他说:其实什么都没做
And he said, “Hardly anything.
他就是暴打了别人一顿之类的吧
He beat someone up or something,
但是他决定装疯来逃脱徒刑
and he decided to fake madnessto get out of a prison sentence.
可他装得太像了
But he faked it too well,
现在他被困在布罗德莫精神病院了
and now he’s stuck in Broadmoor
没人相信他是正常的了
and nobody will believe he’s sane.
你想让我们把你送到布罗德莫精神病院去见一下托尼吗?
Do you want us to try and get youinto Broadmoor to meet Tony?”
我说:可以 麻烦了
So I said, “Yes, please.”
于是我搭上火车去了布罗德莫精神病院
So I got the train to Broadmoor.
然后在坎普顿公园附近我开始不由自主地打哈欠
I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park,
这明显和狗狗紧张时的行为如出一辙
which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious,
它们会情不自禁地打哈欠
they yawn uncontrollably.
我们到了布罗德莫精神病院
And we got to Broadmoor.
我在穿越了一道又一道门之后
And I got taken through gateafter gate after gate after gate
被领进了医院的健康中心
into the wellness center,
就是你可以见到病人的地方
which is where you get to meet the patients.
那里看起来就像是一个巨大的汉普顿酒店
It looks like a giant Hampton Inn.
到处都是桃色 菠萝色等让人宁静的颜色
It’s all peach and pine and calming colors.
唯一比较刺眼的颜色则是应急按钮的红色
And the only bold colorsare the reds of the panic buttons.
病人们开始鱼贯而入
And the patients started drifting in.
他们看起来超重得厉害 穿着宽松的运动长裤
And they were quite overweightand wearing sweatpants,
倒是挺温顺的样子
and quite docile-looking.
布莱恩悄悄对我说:
And Brian the Scientologistwhispered to me,
他们服药了
“They’re medicated,”
对这些科学论派者来说这就如同世界上最邪恶的事情一样
which, to the Scientologists, is like the worst evil in the world,
我倒不觉得这是件坏事
but I’m thinking it’s probably a good idea.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
然后布莱恩说:那就是托尼
And then Brian said, “Here’s Tony.”
这个男人正走进来
And a man was walking in.
他一点也不胖 身材非常好
And he wasn’t overweight,he was in very good physical shape.
也没有穿宽松的裤子
And he wasn’t wearing sweatpants,
他穿着细条纹的西装
he was wearing a pinstripe suit.
他还张开双臂
And he had his arm outstretched
像《名人学徒》里的人一样
like someone out of The Apprentice.
他看起来希望自己着装得体
He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit
以让我信服他是一个非常正常的人
that would convince me that he was very sane.
他坐下了
And he sat down.
我问他:你是靠装疯卖傻进来的 对吧?
And I said, “So is it true that you faked your way in here?”
他说:是的 确实是这样 我17岁那年打了人
And he said, “Yep. Yep. Absolutely.I beat someone up when I was 17.
然后我就在监狱等待审判了
And I was in prison awaiting trial,
我的狱友对我说
and my cellmate said to me,
你知道你应该做什么吗
‘You know what you have to do?
装疯
Fake madness.
告诉他们你是疯子 然后你会被送到一个舒适的医院里
Tell them you’re mad, you’ll getsent to some cushy hospital.
护士会给你披萨 而你也会有自己的娱乐天地
Nurses will bring you pizzas,you’ll have your own PlayStation.'”
我问他:你是怎么做到的
I said, “Well, how did you do it?”
他说:我要求去见监狱里的精神病专家
He said, “Well, I asked to seethe prison psychiatrist.
我又刚好看了一部电影叫《撞击》
And I’d just seen a film called ‘Crash,’
电影里人把车撞到墙上时会得到一种性愉悦
in which people get sexual pleasurefrom crashing cars into walls.
于是我就对那个精神病专家说:
So I said to the psychiatrist,
我把车撞到墙上时会得到一种性愉悦
‘I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'”
然后我问他:还有别的吗?
And I said, “What else?”
他说:哦对 我还告诉他
He said, “Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist
我喜欢观看女人的死亡过程
that I wanted to watch women as they died,
因为那会使我觉得更正常
because it would make me feel more normal.”
我问他:这又是你从哪里听来的?
I said, “Where’d you get that from?”
他说:哦 就是从那本泰德·邦迪的自传里
He said, “Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy that they had
监狱图书馆就有这本书
at the prison library.”
总之 他说自己就是装疯装得太像了
Anyway, he faked madnesstoo well, he said.
结果他们没把他送到某间舒适的医院
And they didn’t send him to some cushy hospital.
而是把他送进了布罗德莫精神病院
They sent him to Broadmoor.
托尼一到这里
And the minute he got there,
看了下四周的环境 就要求去见精神病医生
said he took one look at the place,asked to see the psychiatrist,
他说:这当中有很大的误会
said, “There’s been a terrible misunderstanding.
我并没有精神疾病
I’m not mentally ill.”
我问他:你在这里待了多久啊?
I said, “How long have you been here for?”
他说:唉 我要是好好在监狱里服刑
He said, “Well, if I’d just done my time in prison
以我原来的罪行 也就待个5年
for the original crime, I’d have got five years.
而我已经在布罗德莫精神病院待了12年了
I’ve been in Broadmoor for 12 years.”
托尼说 说服别人你是正常的
Tony said that it’s a lot harderto convince people you’re sane
要比说服他们你是精神不正常的更难
than it is to convince them you’re crazy.
他说:我认为证明我没病的最好方式
He said, “I thought the best way to seem normal
就是正常地和别人聊一些正常的事情
would be to talk to people normally about normal things
比如说足球 电视节目
like football or what’s on TV.
我订阅了《新科学家》
I subscribe to New Scientist,
最近他们有一篇文章
and recently they had an article
说的是美国军队正训练大黄蜂来嗅出炸药
about how the U.S. Army was trainingbumblebees to sniff out explosives.
然后我就跟护士说
So I said to a nurse,
你知道美国军队正训练大黄蜂
‘Did you know that the U.S. Armyis training bumblebees
来侦查爆炸物吗?
to sniff out explosives?’
当我看我的医疗记录时 上面写着:
When I read my medical notes, I saw they’d written:
相信蜜蜂可以用来侦查爆炸物
‘Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'”
[笑声]
(Laughter)
他说:你知道 他们老是寻找一些非语言的线索
He said, “You know, they’re alwayslooking out for nonverbal clues
来判断我的精神状态
to my mental state.
但是你怎样才算正常地坐好呢?
But how do you sit in a sane way?
你又如何用正常人的方式盘腿呢?
How do you cross your legs in a sane way?
这简直就是不可能的
It’s just impossible.”
当托尼告诉我这些的时候
And when Tony said that to me,
我心想:我坐得像个记者吗?
I thought to myself, “Am I sitting like a journalist?
我这样盘腿像一个记者的举动吗?
Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?”
他说:你知道 我的一边住着斯托克维尔扼杀者案的凶手
He said, “You know, I’ve got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me,
而“踮起脚尖穿过郁金香花丛”的强奸犯
and I’ve got the ‘Tiptoe Through the Tulips’ rapist
住在我的另一边
on the other side of me.
他们其实挺可怕的
So I tend to stay in my room a lot
所以我大部分时间愿意待在自己的房间里
because I find them quite frightening.
而医生认为这是我疯狂的迹象
And they take that as a sign of madness.
他们说这表明我冷漠又浮夸
They say it proves that I’m aloof and grandiose.”
可见 也只有在布罗德莫精神病院会将“不愿意与杀人犯相来往”
So, only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers
算作疯狂的迹象
be a sign of madness.
无论如何 我觉得他看起来十分正常 但谁知道呢?
Anyway, he seemed completely normal to me, but what did I know?
于是回家后我就给他的临床医生安东尼·梅德寄了一封邮件
And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden.
我问:真实情况到底是怎样的?
And I said, “What’s the story?”
而他说:没错 我们相信托尼当时是在装疯
And he said, “Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness
以此来逃避徒刑 因为他说的那些幻象
to get out of a prison sentence, because his hallucinations —
看起来就很老套很假
that had seemed quite cliched to begin with —
而且进入布罗德莫精神病院后并未发现他有此类病症
just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor.
但是 我们就他的情况进行了分析
However, we have assessed him,
我们判定他为
and we’ve determined that what he is
精神病患者
is a psychopath.”
因为实际上
And in fact, faking madness
装疯正是精神病患者具有的一种狡猾的操纵行为
is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath.
检查表上有这些:狡猾且控制欲强
It’s on the checklist: cunning, manipulative.
所以说 假装你的大脑有问题这一行为
So, faking your brain going wrong
恰恰证明你的大脑真的出问题了
is evidence that your brain has gone wrong.
然后我又跟其他专家交流了
And I spoke to other experts,
而他们说 他穿的细条纹套装
and they said the pinstripe suit — classic psychopath —
和检查表上典型的精神病患者的某些特征不谋而合:
speaks to items one and two on the checklist:
花言巧语 外表光鲜亮丽 以及自我感觉良好
glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth.
我问:好吧 那他为什么不想和其他病人来往呢?
And I said, “Well, but why didn’t he hang out with the other patients?”
典型的精神病患者——即浮夸且缺乏同情心
Classic psychopath — it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy.
于是 所有在托尼身上看起来最正常的事情
So all the things that had seemedmost normal about Tony
在医生那里都是他不正常的证据
was evidence, according to his clinician,
是另一种形式的发疯
that he was mad in this new way.
所以他是一个精神病患者
He was a psychopath.
而且他的临床医生还和我说:如果你想了解更多关于精神病的问题
And his clinician said to me, “If youwant to know more about psychopaths,
你可以去参加一个侦测精神病的课程
you can go on a psychopath-spotting course
由罗伯特·海尔主讲 他就是发明精神病检查表的人
run by Robert Hare, who inventedthe psychopath checklist.”
于是我还真参加了
So I did.
我报名参加了“侦测精神病患者课程”
I went on a psychopath-spotting course,
而且现在我拿到了资格证
and I am now a certified —
必须承认 我现在是非常娴熟的精神病鉴别者
and I have to say, extremely adept –psychopath spotter.
好了 下面是统计资料:
So, here’s the statistics:
一百个普通人中就有一个人是精神病患者
One in a hundred regular peopleis a psychopath.
现在这间屋子里有1500个人
So there’s 1,500 people in his room.
你们中间大概有15个人是精神病患者
Fifteen of you are psychopaths.
不过对于总裁和企业领导 这个比率会上升4个百分点
Although that figure rises to four percent of CEOs and business leaders,
所以我觉得很有可能
so I think there’s a very good chance
在这个大厅里大约有30到40名精神病患者
there’s about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room.
可能在今晚结束的时候会有大屠杀
It could be carnage by the end of the night.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
海尔说这是因为资本主义的冷酷无情造就了
Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless
精神病者的行为
rewards psychopathic behavior —
使其缺乏同理心 口若悬河
the lack of empathy, the glibness,
狡猾 控制欲强
cunning, manipulative.
事实上 或许资本主义的冷酷无情
In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless,
正是精神疾病的物理表现
is a physical manifestation of psychopathy.
这就像是精神疾病的一种形式 影响着我们大家
It’s like a form of psychopathythat’s come down to affect us all.
而且海尔还说:要不然这样吧 你先别管布罗德莫精神病院里
And Hare said to me, “You know what?Forget about some guy at Broadmoor
那个装疯 也可能真疯的人吧
who may or may not have faked madness.
谁在乎呢?那并不重要
Who cares? That’s not a big story.
重要的是 是企业型变态人格
The big story,” he said, “is corporate psychopathy.
你应该去采访一下企业精神病患者
You want to go and interview yourselfsome corporate psychopaths.”
于是我就试了一下 我写信给安然公司的人
So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people.
我是这样写的:我可以去监狱采访一下你们吗
I said, “Could I come and interview you in prison,
来搞清楚你们到底是不是精神病患者
to find out it you’re psychopaths?”
[笑声]
(Laughter)
他们没理我
And they didn’t reply.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
所以我就换了一种方式
So I changed tack.
我给“杀手艾尔”Dunlap寄了一封电子邮件
I emailed “Chainsaw Al” Dunlap,
就是那个90年代的资产掠夺者
the asset stripper from the 1990s.
他会去到每况愈下的企业
He would come into failing businesses
裁掉其30%的劳动力
and close down 30 percent of the workforce,
将美国的城镇变成荒凉之地
just turn American towns into ghost towns.
所以我给他发电邮说
And I emailed him and I said,
“我相信您有一颗异常独特的大脑
“I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly
这让您很特别
that makes you … special,
并且对捕食者精神有十分浓厚的兴趣 十分无畏
and interested in the predatory spirit, and fearless.
我可以就您那个异常独特的大脑采访一下您吗?
Can I come and interview you about your special brain anomaly?”
然后他说:那请快来吧
And he said, “Come on over!”
[笑声]
(Laughter)
所以我去了他在佛罗里达的大豪宅
So I went to Al Dunlap’s grand Florida mansion.
到处都是食肉动物的雕塑
It was filled with sculptures of predatory animals.
那里有狮子 老虎 当时他正带我穿过他的花园
There were lions and tigers — he was taking me through the garden —
那儿有猎鹰和老鹰
there were falcons and eagles,
他当时说:这里还有鲨鱼还有……
he was saying, “Over there you’ve got sharks and –“
他当时说的时候没有这么温柔
he was saying this in a less effeminate way —
还有更多的鲨鱼 还有老虎
“You’ve got more sharks and you’ve got tigers.”
就像纳尼亚王国一样
It was like Narnia.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
然后我们就来到了他的厨房
And then we went into his kitchen.
现在Al Dunlap会被聘请去拯救那些濒临破产的公司
Now, Al Dunlap would be brought into save failing companies,
他会削减掉30%的劳动力
he’d close down 30 percent of the workforce.
而且他经常用一个玩笑来解雇员工
And he’d quite often fire people with a joke.
举个例子 这是一个关于他的经典传闻
Like, for instance, one famous story about him,
当时有人去找他告诉他说:我刚好给自己买了一辆新车
somebody came up to him and said,”I’ve just bought myself a new car.”
然后他就说:不错 你现在是有了一辆新车
And he said, “Well, you may have a new car,
但我告诉你你现在没有什么吧——一份工作
but I’ll tell you what you don’t have — a job.”
在他的厨房里
So in his kitchen —
当时他和妻子朱迪以及保镖肖站在一起
he was standing there with his wife, Judy, and his bodyguard, Shaw
我就说:您还记得我在邮件里说的话吧
and I said, “You know how I said in my email
就是你可能有一个异于常人的大脑使你脱颖而出
that you might have a special brainanomaly that makes you special?”
他答:是啊 这个结论非常有趣 就像《星际迷航》里说的
And he said, “Yeah, it’s an amazingtheory, it’s like Star Trek.
“你现在要去的地方是其他人都没有去过的地方”
You’re going where no man has gone before.”
然后我就说:好吧……(清嗓子)
And I said, “Well –” (Clears throat)
[笑声]
(Laughter)
有些精神病专家可能会这样说你
Some psychologists might say
这会让你……
that this makes you –” (Mumbles)
[笑声]
(Laughter)
他紧接着问:让我怎么样?
And he said, “What?”
我说:让你成为一个精神病
And I said, “A psychopath.”
我随后解释:我兜里有一份精神病特征清单
And I said, “I’ve got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket.
我能和你把这些过一遍吗?
Can I go through them with you?”
这好像引起了他的兴趣 尽管测试对象是他自己
And he looked intrigued despite himself,
但他还是说:行 开始吧
and he said, “Okay, go on.”
我说:好 第一条是自我价值的浮夸感
And I said, “Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth.”
我得说就这个来讲 他还挺难否认的
Which I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny,
因为他当时就站在一幅自己的巨幅油画前
because he was standing under a giant oil painting of himself.
[笑声]
(Laughter)
他说:怎么说呢 你总要相信自己对吧!
He said, “Well, you’ve got to believe in you!”
然后我就说:控制欲强
And I said, “Manipulative.”
他辩解道:那是领导力
He said, “That’s leadership.”
[笑声]
(Laughter)
然后我就说:情感浅层化
And I said, “Shallow affect,
就是不能感受所有情绪
an inability to experience a range of emotions.”
他说:谁想被一些可笑的情绪压倒啊?
He said, “Who wants to be weigheddown by some nonsense emotions?”
我们对照清单时的场景
So we were going down the psychopath checklist,
基本和《谁动了我的奶酪》里面一样?
basically turning it into “Who Moved My Cheese?”
[笑声]
(Laughter)
但是和他在一起的时候我却认识到了一个问题
But I did notice something happeningto me the day I was with Al Dunlap.
无论他说什么 听起来都很正常
Whenever he said anything to methat was kind of normal —
例如他说他反对少年违法犯罪
like he said “no” to juvenile delinquency,
他说他被西点军校录取了
he said he got accepted into West Point,
他们不让行为不良的人进西点军校
and they don’t let delinquents in West Point.
他反对很多短期的婚姻关系
He said “no” to many short-termmarital relationships.
他只结过两次婚
He’s only ever been married twice.
她的第一任妻子明确在离婚书上写过
Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers
他曾经用一把刀威胁过她
that he once threatened her with a knife
还说他经常好奇人肉到底是什么味道的
and said he always wonderedwhat human flesh tasted like,
但是 有时候人们会说出一些气话
but people say stupid things to each other
比如说婚姻关系紧张时 或争吵激烈时
in bad marriages in the heat of an argument,
他的第二段婚姻坚持了41年
and his second marriage has lasted 41 years.
那么当他和我说一些听起来正常的话时
So whenever he said anything to methat just seemed kind of non psychopathic,
我就会默默告诉自己 我不准备把这些写进书里
I thought to myself, well I’m notgoing to put that in my book.
然后我就发现 成为一名鉴别精神病患者的人
And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter
倒是让我变得有点神神叨叨的
had kind of turned me a little bit psychopathic.
因为我拼命想把他归在神经病患者那一列上
Because I was desperate to shove himin a box marked “Psychopath.”
我拼命想用他最疯狂的举动来给他下定义
I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges.
后来我发现 我的天啊
And I realized, my God —
这就是我做了20年的事情
this is what I’ve been doing for 20 years.
原来所有记者都一直在做这件事
It’s what all journalists do.
我们带着笔记本走遍世界
We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands,
等待着劲爆的料子
and we wait for the gems.
而且劲爆点都是采访对象的
And the gems are always the outermost aspects
最外向的人格
of our interviewee’s personality.
我们像中世纪僧侣一样将人物行为补缀起来
And we stitch them together like medieval monks,
我们把正常的东西弃掉
and we leave the normal stuff on the floor.
而且 你知道 有些国家经常发生
And you know, this is a countrythat over-diagnoses
精神疾病过度诊断现象
certain mental disorders hugely.
比如儿童期躁郁症
Childhood bipolar —
连4岁小孩都被挂上这个标签
children as young as four are being labeled bipolar
因为他们脾气暴躁
because they have temper tantrums,
这就使得他们高度符合儿童期躁郁症检核单
which scores them high on the bipolar checklist.
当我回到伦敦以后 托尼给我打电话
When I got back to London, Tony phoned me.
他说:你为什么还没给我回电?
He said, “Why haven’t you been returning my calls?”
我说:因为他们说你确实有精神病
I said, “Well, they said that you’re a psychopath.”
他说:我没精神病
And he said, “I’m not a psychopath.”
他说:你知道吗?
He said, “You know what?
清单上有一项是缺乏同情心
One of the items on the checklistis lack of remorse,
但是另一项是狡猾 控制欲强
but another item on the checklistis cunning, manipulative.
所以当你说你对犯罪感到懊悔时
So when you say you feel remorse for your crime,
他们会说你是典型的精神病患者
they say, ‘Typical of the psychopath
说自己对罪行懊悔 真是口是心非
to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn’t.’
这就像巫术 他们完全颠倒了一切
It’s like witchcraft, they turn everything upside-down.”
他说:我的审判就快来了
He said, “I’ve got a tribunal coming up.
你会来参加吗?
Will you come to it?”
我说 可以
So I said okay.
于是我就去了他的审判会
So I went to his tribunal.
在布罗德莫精神病院待了14年 他们终于肯放他走了
And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go.
他们决定不能遥遥无期地把他拘在精神病院
They decided that he shouldn’t be held indefinitely
就只是因为他的检核表分数很高
because he scores high on a checklist that might mean
这样再犯的可能性很大
that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism.
所以他们就允许他离开了
So they let him go.
在外面的走廊他跟我说:
And outside in the corridor he said to me,
你知道吗?约翰
“You know what, Jon?
每个人都有一点精神病
Everyone’s a bit psychopathic.”
他说:你我都是 不过我肯定是啦
He said, “You are, I am. Well, obviously I am.”
我问:那你现在打算做什么?
I said, “What are you going to do now?”
他说:我要去比利时
He said, “I’m going to go to Belgium.
因为那里有个我喜欢的女人
cause there’s a woman there that I fancy.
可是她结婚了 所以我还得想个办法把她和她丈夫分开
But she’s married, so I’m going to haveto get her split up from her husband.”
[笑声]
(Laughter)
不管怎么说 那都是两年前的事情了
Anyway, that was two years ago,
那也是我的书结束的地方
and that’s where my book ended.
过去的20个月 一切正常
And for the last 20 months, everything was fine.
什么坏事都没有发生
Nothing bad happened.
他和一个女孩住在伦敦郊外
He was living with a girl outside London.
据那个科学论鼓吹者布莱恩说
He was, according to Brian the Scientologist,
他在及时弥补自己逝去的时间 虽然听起来不太好
making up for lost time, which I know sounds ominous,
不过也说不定
but isn’t necessarily ominous.
不幸的是 20个月后
Unfortunately, after 20 months,
他又回到监狱里待了一个月
he did go back to jail for a month.
他说是因为在酒馆与人发生争执
He got into a “fracas” in a bar, he called it.
最终去监狱待了一个月 我知道这听起来并不好
Ended up going to jail for a month,which I know is bad,
但是至少这暗示无论争执发生在哪里
but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was,
情况还不是太糟
it wasn’t too bad.
后来 他打电话给我
And then he phoned me.
告诉你们 我觉得托尼出来是对的
And you know what, I think it’s right that Tony is out.
因为你不能用他们最不正常的行为来定义他们
Because you shouldn’t define people by their maddest edges.
托尼应该只能算半个疯子吧
And what Tony is, is he’s a semi-psychopath.
他是灰色区域 却生在一个不能容忍灰色区域的世界里
He’s a gray area in a world that doesn’t like gray areas.
但是正是在灰色地带你才能找到复杂性
But the gray areas are where you find the complexity.
才能找到人性
It’s where you find the humanity,
才能找到真理
and it’s where you find the truth.
托尼跟我说:
And Tony said to me,
约翰 我能请你去酒吧喝一杯吗?
“Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar?
我想谢谢你为我所做的一切
I just want to thank you for everything you’ve done for me.”
我没有去
And I didn’t go.
如果是你 你会怎么做?
What would you have done?
谢谢
Thank you.
[掌声]
(Applause)

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译制信息
视频概述

我们这个时代其实非常愿意给人贴标签,用一个人最疯狂的行为来判断他的精神现状。人性的真相究竟如何?非黑即白真的好吗?灰色地带真的一无是处吗?

听录译者

收集自网络

翻译译者

ccz

审核员

T

视频来源

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c

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