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艺术和艺术家可以分离吗?

Oshrat Kotler | We Cannot Separate The Art From The Artist (5/6) | Oxford Union

I now look to you, Oshrat Kotler,
现在有请 奥沙瑞特·科特勒
to close the case for the proposition.
来为这个提议结案
[Applause]
[掌声]
Good evening.
晚上好
First let me take this opportunity in thanking you for inviting me.
首先 我想借此机会感谢大家的邀请
It’s a great honour speaking in front of you this evening for me.
今晚我很荣幸站在这里发言
Actually you made me want to go back to my university years.
说真的 你们让我想回到大学时代
It’s incredible.
太不可思议了
A young lady over there, you touched my heart.
那边的那位年轻女士 你触动了我
You are so brave.
你非常勇敢
[Applause]
[掌声]
So can one seperate the art from the artist?
那么 我们能把艺术家和艺术分离吗?
A profound question, indeed.
这确实是个深奥的问题
Especially for me as I’m a true ambassador to the arts,
尤其对我这样一位艺术大使来说
and believe that an artist has been gifted with an ability
而且我觉得艺术家被赋予的天赋
so unique, so ethereal.
是那么独特 那么优雅
But for those who are not artistically inclined,
但对于那些没有艺术天赋的人来说
such as us, the commoners,
像我们这样的普通人
it leaves us with the feeling of awe.
它让我们有种敬畏的感觉
One could suggest that a gift as unique as this
有人会说 像这样一种独特的天赋
should be above any earthly rules or limitations
应该超越任何世俗的规则和限制
that it should be left alone to flourish in an arena, over artistic freedom
它应该在艺术自由的竞技场上恣意发展
I think we can all agree that good arts, arts at all,
我认为我们都同意 艺术 优秀的艺术
deserves and needs freedom.
理应有自由 也需要自由
But can artist be freed of any moral judgements?
但艺术家是否应该摆脱任何道德评判呢?
What if the artist is inhuman?
如果艺术家野蛮无人性呢?
What if they abuse people, inflict pain,
如果他们虐待他人 让他人遭受痛苦
or even cause permanent damage to others?
甚至对他人造成永久性伤害呢?
Should we continue to admire the work,
我们还应该继续欣赏他们的艺术
put them on the pedestal,
让他们受人膜拜
and courage them to continue with their artistic creativity?
并鼓励他们继续施展他们的艺术创造力吗?
On one hand,
一方面
what will we lose as society by setting moral boundries to the artist?
如果社会为艺术家设定道德界限 我们将失去什么?
Would we still have art at all?
我们还会有艺术吗?
On the other hand,
另一方面
where do we draw the line when it comes to limitation on freedom?
如果自由被限制 那么界限应该画在哪里呢?
Not only artistic freedom, but any form of freedom.
我们谈的不仅仅是艺术自由 而是任何形式的自由
In order to address these profound issues,
为解释这些深奥的问题
we need to reflect,
我们需要反思
I believe on the purpose of art,
我相信艺术有其存在的目的
the role it has within society,
相信它在社会中所发挥的作用
and then ask ourselves,
然后 扪心自问
what is the purpose of human society at all?
人类社会的目的到底是什么?
Why was it established in the first place?
为什么要首先建立社会?
The first signs of art of beautiful cave wall drawings
早在大约四万年前 石器时代
were found to exist in the Stone Age,
美丽的洞穴壁画上的第一个艺术痕迹
some forty thousand years ago.
就已经出现了
Was this essential for survival?
这对于生存来说重要吗?
Researchers cannot determine.
研究人员无法确定
But what about modern society?
那么现代社会呢?
Does humanity need art in order to survive?
人类需要艺术来维系生存吗?
Can we go on living without it, for example?
比如 没有它 我们能继续生活下去吗?
The answer is of course we can.
答案是 我们当然可以
We can go on living, loving,
没有艺术 我们仍能够继续生活 相爱
bringing up our children, without art.
养育我们的孩子
But we choose to embrace it because it inspires us.
但我们选择拥抱艺术 因为它激励着我们
It gives us pleasure. It help us to express ourselves.
它带给我们快乐 帮助我们表达自己
Society needs art because it transcends us to a higher level of existence.
社会需要艺术 因为它能让我们得到升华
I believe that it was Oscar Wilde who claimed that
我想起奥斯卡·王尔德说过的
‘Through art, and only through art,
“通过艺术 而且只能通过艺术
we can protect ourselves from the severe dangers of existence.’
我们才能保护自己 免于生存之险恶”
No doubt a monumental quote.
毫无疑问 这是一句不朽的名言
But what if the danger is evoked by the artist himself?
但是如果危险是艺术家自身引发的呢?
So once again,
所以 再问一次
when should we separate the art from the artist?
何时我们应该把艺术和艺术家分开呢?
Where is the line of acceptance and forgiveness for any immoral behaviour?
对于任何不道德的艺术行为 接受和宽恕的界限在哪里?
Or maybe there should be no line at all.
或者根本不应该有界限
Let me use this point, quite an extreme example.
我举一个比较极端的例子吧
Ludwig van Beethoven was a musical prodigy,
路德维希·凡·贝多芬是一位音乐奇才
but with an unpleasant disposition.
但他品行不好
Those that encountered him described him as rude,
见过他的人 都说他对别人 包括对自己的同行
impolite and intolerant to others, including fellow musicians.
都很粗鲁无礼 斤斤计较
Not really a character that you would choose as a friend.
你不会选择和这种人做朋友的
Regardless of this, we admire his work, his creations
尽管如此 我们还是膜拜他的艺术 他的作品
and have been celebrating his music for the past two centuries already.
并且在过去的两个世纪里 我们一直在赞美他的音乐
Wilhelm Wagner, on the other side, was a brilliant composer too.
另一方面 威廉·瓦格纳也是一位杰出的作曲家
Even so he was boycotted in Israel for decades,
但尽管如此 他却在以色列被抵制了几十年
due to his anti-semitic views,
原因有三 首先他自身有反犹太主义观念
the close connections his family had with the Nazis,
其次他的家族与纳粹存在密切接触
and the fact that his music was embraced and valued by the Nazi regime
此外他的音乐还受到了纳粹党的拥护和珍视
This also applied to Richard Strauss,
作曲家理查·施特劳斯与瓦格纳的境遇相似
who had an official role in the Third Reich.
因为他是第三帝国的一位官员
So why are we able to separate the art from the artists
所以 为什么我们能把艺术和艺术家分离
in the case of Beethoven,
对贝多芬我们可以敬仰 盛赞
but not in the case of Wagner or Strauss?
而对瓦格纳或施特劳斯却不行呢?
In order to answer this question,
为了回答这个问题
we need to go back to my initial question:
我们需要回到最初的问题
why was society created at all?
社会究竟为什么被创造出来?
The challenge of human society is portrayed by Jean-Jacques Rousseau
让-雅克·卢梭在《社会契约论》中 描述了人类社会面临的挑战
in the social contract is, and I quote:
我引用一下 即
”To find a form of association which will defend and protect with
“要找到一种能以全部共同的力量来维护和保障
the whole common force, the personal goods
每个结合者人身和财产的结合形式
of which associate and within each
使这个结合体中的每一个人
while uniting himself with all may still obey himself alone,
在与全体相联合时 仍然能够遵从他自身的意志
and remains as free as before.”
而且同以往一样自由”
Thus comes to exist, the social contract in the civil state
因此 通过在个人行为中
that preserves and protecting individual,
以正义取代本能 赋予其行为道德
by substituting justice for instinct in his conduct
从而在保护以及保卫个人的公民国家中
and giving his actions morality.
形成了社会契约
Society was created in order to protecting individuals from the dangers of nature,
社会的建立是为了保护个体免受大自然的威胁
but also from the dangers of human nature.
也是为了保护个体免遭人性的迫害
– Can I ask a question? – Not now, I’m sorry.
– 我能问个问题吗? – 现在不行 抱歉
Human beings in the West Savannah need each other in order to survive.
居住在萨凡纳西部的人为了生存需要彼此支持
In today’s modern society, people need protection from other people too.
在当今社会 人们同样也需要他人的保护
Rousseau was the first to acknowledge that.
卢梭是第一个意识到这一点的人
So if we agree that this is one of the
因此 如果我们认同这是
first fundamental functions of society,
社会最基本的功能之一
we should in fact reject any human behaviour
事实上 我们应该抵制
that goes against this theory.
任何违背这一理论的人类行为
So it’s true Beethoven was a rude and vulgar person,
所以贝多芬确实是一个粗俗无礼的人
who probably suffered from the bipolar disorder.
他可能患有躁郁症
Van Gogh lost his mind.
梵高精神失常
Other artists can be labelled as eccentric, anti social
其他艺术家可能被贴上古怪 反社会
or even estranged from society.
甚至脱离社会的标签
Nevertheless, as long as they don’t cross over the line
不过 只要他们不越界
and breach the basic human contract,
不违反人类的基本契约
we may savour and rejoice the art and creations.
我们仍可以欣赏享受他们的艺术和作品
This is why I am able to enjoy Beethoven’s magnificent creations.
这就是我能欣赏贝多芬伟大作品的原因
Yet on the other hand, as a daughter of holocaust survivor,
但另一方面 作为大屠杀幸存者的女儿
I am unable to listen to the music,
我无法欣赏那些尽管音乐很宏伟
magnificent as it maybe, of composers who believe,
但它的作曲家却相信所谓的
for example, in the final solutions of the Jews.
比如 犹太人问题的最终解决方案
An artist that breaches this contract,
一个艺术家 如果违反社会契约
that endangers the freedom and safety of member of society,
危害社会成员的自由和安全
regardless of the religion, fate, believes,
不论他的宗教 命运 信仰
or background, by a direct action,
和背景 只要他越界一步
and this is very important, only by a direct action,
这点非常重要 只要他越界一步
should lose his place in society,
他的社会地位就应该丧失
together with a privilege platform, of which he presents his creativity and art.
连同他展示其艺术和创造力的特权平台
And along with this, the power, we attribute to it.
与此同时 他也应丧失我们所赋予他的权力
Unless he regrets his action.
除非他忏悔他的所作所为
Yes, apology can be accepted.
是的 道歉是可以接受的
So as far of the MeToo Movement,
至于MeToo运动
we should follow the same logic.
我们应该遵从相同的逻辑
Any artist that abuses, harasses, or attacks another person
任何施暴 骚扰或攻击他人的艺术家
should not be embraced by society,
都不该被社会所接纳
neither should their creation period.
他们的创作也不应被接受
It is true, it is very true,
毫无疑问
that art transcends us to a higher level of existence.
艺术使我们人类得到了升华
But let us exist safely first.
但是首先 它得保证我们的安全
Our first obligation as member of society
正如卢梭在两百年前所言
is to defend and protect with a whole common force
我们作为社会成员的首要义务
the person and good of each associate
就是用集体的力量去捍卫和保护
as Rousseau claimed more than 200 years ago.
每个社会成员的人身和权益
Artist, as a fundamental and essential part of our society,
艺术家 作为社会中不可或缺的一部分
should follow the same obligations.
理应履行同样的义务
The greater the success, the higher the obligation stands.
而且成就越大 责任越大
In their privilege position, they become gate keepers
坐拥权势的他们 应该成为守护者
for the safe existence of other,
应当守护他人的安全
preferably a loving existence.
最好成为一个有爱的存在
This is the epitome of our society.
这是我们社会的缩影
If we would not exclude artist who harm others,
如果我们接纳伤害他人的艺术家
we will lose the very basic reason of existing as society at all.
我们将失去社会存在最根本的理由
Thank you!
谢谢!
[Applause]
[掌声]

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译制信息
视频概述

评价作品时无法脱离其创作者本身。如果艺术家对这个社会造成危害,我们还应该继续拥护这个艺术家吗?

听录译者

西西里呀

翻译译者

紫雨

审核员

审核员BA

视频来源

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38eiSzeUOOY

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