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动物的道德行为

Moral behavior in animals | Frans de Waal

I was born in Den Bosch,
我出生在荷兰的登博斯
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
画家希罗尼穆斯•博斯就取名于此城
And I’ve always been very fond of this painter
我一直很喜欢这位
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
生活在15世纪的画家
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
很有趣的一点是他与道德的关系
is that he lived at a time where religion’s influence was waning,
他正好生在一个宗教影响力日渐衰弱的时代
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
我想:他也会觉得困惑
what would happen with society
如果没有宗教或其影响没那么大的话
if there was no religion or if there was less religion.
社会将会是什么样子
And so he painted this famous painting,”The Garden of Earthly Delights,”
所以他画了这幅著名的作品《人间乐园》
which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall,
有人诠释为 那是人类堕落前的人性
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
或说人性本就如此 谈不上任何堕落
And so it makes you wonder,
这会让人想弄明白
what would happen if we hadn’t tasted the fruit of knowledge,
如果我们没有尝过智慧之树的果实会怎样
so to speak, and what kind of morality would we have.
也就是说 我们的道德观会是怎样
Much later, as a student,
很久以后 我还是个学生时
I went to a very different garden,
去过一个与众不同的公园
a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees.
是在阿纳姆的一个动物园 那儿饲养着黑猩猩
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
这是年轻时的我抱着一只小猩猩
(Laughter)
[笑声]
And I discovered there
在那我发现
that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry and wrote a book about it.
黑猩猩权利欲很强 我还对此写了一本书
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
当时大多数的动物研究
was on aggression and competition.
都集中在动物的攻击性和竞争性方面
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom and humanity included,
而我描述了整个动物界的情形 包括人类
was that deep down we are competitors,
本质上 我们是竞争者
we are aggressive,
我们有攻击性
we are all out for our own profit, basically.
主要是出于我们自己的利益
This is the launch of my book.
我的书就这样出版了
I’m not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
我不确定黑猩猩能读懂多少
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
但它们看上去对这本书很感兴趣
(Laughter)
[笑声]
Now in the process of doing all this
在做这些研究力量
work on power and dominance and aggression and so on,
统治和侵略性等的过程中
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
我发现黑猩猩争斗之后会和解
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
这里你看到的是两只雄性黑猩猩打架之后
They ended up in a tree,
它们爬上树
and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
其中一只伸出手给另一只
And about a second after I took the picture,
我刚拍完这张照片
they came together in the fork of the tree
它们就跳到一棵树枝上
and kissed and embraced each other.
一起亲吻 拥抱对方
And this is very interesting because at the time,
这很有趣 因为当时所有描述黑猩猩的事
everything was about competition and aggression,
都是关于竞争和攻击的
so it wouldn’t make any sense.
所以这有点不合常理
The only thing that matters is that you win or you lose.
唯一要紧的是你赢了或输了
But why reconcile after a fight? That doesn’t make any sense.
但为什么打完架再和解呢?毫无道理
This is the way bonobos do it.
这是倭黑猩猩的做法
Bonobos do everything with sex.
它们用性交来解决任何问题
And so they also reconcile with sex.
它们也用性交来和解
But the principle is exactly the same.
但规律是相同的
The principle is that you have a valuable relationship that is damaged by conflict,
规律便是你有一段珍贵的关系被冲突破坏
so you need to do something about it.
所以需要想办法解决
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,
所以当时我对整个动物界的看法
and including humans also,
也包括人类
started to change at that time.
开始改变
So we have this image
我们有这样的印象
in political science, economics, the humanities, the philosophy for that matter,
从政治学 经济学 人文学 和哲学来讲
that man is a wolf to man.
人对待同类就像狼一样残忍
And so deep down, our nature is actually nasty.
所以从根本上说 我们的本性是肮脏的
I think it’s a very unfair image for the wolf.
我想这对狼来说是不公平的
The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal.
毕竟狼是一种很有合作精神的动物
And that’s why many of you have a dog at home,
这就是为什么很多人家里养狗
which has all these characteristics also.
狗也有这些特征
And it’s really unfair to humanity,
对人类来说也是不公平的
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
因为人类实际上比野蛮的物种
than given credit for.
更富有合作精神和同理心
So I started getting interested in those issues
所以我开始对这些课题感兴趣
and studying that in other animals.
并在其它动物身上做研究
So these are the pillars of morality.
这些就是道德的支柱
If you ask anyone,”What is morality based on?”
如果你问一个人 道德基于什么
these are the two factors that always come out.
通常总会有两个因素
One is reciprocity,
一个是互惠
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
这与正义感和公平感有关
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
另一个是共情和怜悯
And human morality is more than this,
人类道德远不止此
but if you would remove these two pillars,
但如果你把这两条拿走
there would be not much remaining, I think.
我觉得剩下的就不多了
So they’re absolutely essential.
所以 它们是绝对必要的
So let me give you a few examples here.
这里我来举几个例子
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center,
这是Yerkes灵长类研究中心的旧录像
where they trained chimpanzees to cooperate.
他们在那里训练黑猩猩合作
So this is already about a hundred years ago
我们做合作方面的实验
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
也有百年历史了
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
这是两只年幼的黑猩猩 还有个盒子
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
盒子太重 一只猩猩拖不动
And of course, there’s food on the box.
当然 盒子上有食物
Otherwise they wouldn’t be pulling so hard.
不然它们不会卖力去拉
And so they’re bringing in the box.
盒子被拉过来了
And you can see that they’re synchronized.
你看 它们在同时拖动
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
它们一起工作 在同一时刻拖动盒子
It’s already a big advance over many other animals
这已经比那些不会这样做的动物
who wouldn’t be able to do that.
先进了很多
Now you’re going to get a more interesting picture,
接下来的画面更有趣
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
因为这两只猩猩中 有一只已经吃饱了
So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore.
所以 其中一只对这个任务并不感兴趣
(Laughter)
[笑声]
(Laughter)
[笑声]
(Laughter)
[笑声]
[ – and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures.
它通过动作表达它的愿望和意思
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
现在来看看最后发生了什么
(Laughter)
[笑声]
He takes basically everything.
它拿走了所有食物
(Laughter)
[笑声]
There are two interesting parts about this.
这个实验有两点非常有趣
One is that the chimp on the right
第一点是右边那只猩猩
has a full understanding he needs the partner —
清楚地知道它需要一个伙伴
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
所以它完全理解合作的必要性
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
第二点是它的伙伴即使对食物没兴趣
even though he’s not interested in the food.
还愿意帮它
Why would that be?
这是为什么呢?
Well, that probably has to do with reciprocity.
他们这样做可能是出于互惠
There’s actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
实际上也有很多证据证明灵长类
that they return favors.
和其它动物都会报恩
He will get a return favor at some point in the future.
有朝一日它会得到回馈
And so that’s how this all operates.
所以这是他们这样做的原因
We do the same task with elephants.
我们对大象也做了同样的实验
Now with elephants, it’s very dangerous to work with elephants.
说起大象 对它们实验很危险
Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus
大象实验还有另一个问题是很难找到
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
对一头大象来说太重的器具
Now you can probably make it,
或许能做出来
but it’s going to be a pretty clumsy apparatus, I think.
但我想那会是个比较笨重的装置
And so what we did in that case —
我们还是做到了
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik —
我们在泰国为Josh Plotnik做了些研究
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
用到的工具就是单单一根绳子
And if you pull on this side of the rope,
如果你拉了绳子的一头
the rope disappears on the other side.
另一头就不见了
So two elephants need to pick it up
所以两头大象必须
at exactly the same time, and pull.
同时捡起绳子并同时拉
Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.
不然 绳子一头不见了实验就进行不下去
The first tape you’re going to see
第一个录像上你看到的
is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus.
是两头大象一起被带到装置这里
The apparatus is on the left, with food on it.
装置在左边 上面放有食物
And so they come together, they arrive together,
所以它们要一起来 同时到
they pick it up together, and they pull together.
一起捡起绳子 一起拉
So it’s actually fairly simple for them.
这对它们来说很简单
There they are.
它们过来了
So that’s how they bring it in.
它们就这样拉过来
But now we’re going to make it more difficult.
现在我们要增加一些难度
Because the purpose of this experiment is to see how well they understand cooperation.
因为这个实验的目的是看它们如何理解合作
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
比如 他们是不是和黑猩猩一样理解合作呢?
in the next step is we release one elephant before the other
下一步中 我们先放出一头象
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
这头象得聪明一点
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope —
待在那等着 不能拉绳子
because if he pulls at the rope,
因为如果它拉了绳子
it disappears and the whole test is over.
另一头不见了 这个实验就结束了
Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it.
这头大象做了点我们没教过的坏事
But it shows the understanding he has,
它很清楚自己在干什么
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
它把大脚踩在绳子上
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
站在上面等另一头象
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
等它过来承包所有的工作量
So it’s what we call freeloading.
我们称之为吃白食
(Laughter)
[笑声]
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
这也可以看出大象的才智
They developed several of these alternative techniques
它们想出了几个投机取巧的办法
that we did not approve of, necessarily.
我们当然都不赞成
(Laughter)
[笑声]
So the other elephant is now coming…
现在另一头象过来了
and is going to pull it in.
要去拉绳子
Now look at the other; it doesn’t forget to eat, of course.
看看另一头 它可没忘记吃
(Laughter)
[笑声]
This was the cooperation and reciprocity part.
这是合作互惠的部分
Now something on empathy.
现在来看一下共情
Empathy is my main topic at the moment, of research.
共情是研究的主要课题
And empathy has two qualities:
它包含两种品质
One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition:
一种是理解部分 这只是个常规定义:
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
理解和分享对方感受的能力
And the emotional part.
另一种是情绪部分
Empathy has basically two channels:
所以 共情有两个渠道
One is the body channel, If you talk with a sad person,
一个是身体渠道 如果你和一位悲伤的人交谈
you’re going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
在你还没感到悲伤时
and before you know it, you feel sad.
你就已经采取着一种悲伤的腔调和态度了
And that’s sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
这就是一种共情的身体渠道
which many animals have.
很多动物都有
Your average dog has that also.
普通的小狗都有
That’s why people keep mammals in the home
这就是为什么人们喜欢在家养哺乳动物
and not turtles or snakes or something like that,
而不是乌龟 蛇或其它
who don’t have that kind of empathy.
没有这种同理心的动物的原因了
And then there’s a cognitive channel,
再一个就是认知渠道
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
这个渠道更多的是你能接受别人的看法
And that’s more limited.
有认知渠道表现的动物也更少
Very few animals, I think elephants and apes,
很少有动物能做到
can do that kind of thing.
我想大象和猿类可以做到
So synchronization, which is part of that whole empathy mechanism,
所以说 同步是整个共情体系的一部分
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
在动物界也有历史了
In humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion.
在人类中 我们能通过打哈欠传染来说明
Humans yawn when others yawn.
当一个人打哈欠时 其他人也会跟着打
And it’s related to empathy.
这就跟共情有关
It activates the same areas in the brain.
它可以激活大脑的相同区域
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
我们知道有打哈欠传染现象的人
are highly empathic.
很容易产生共情
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
对那些有共情障碍的人 像患自闭症的孩子
they don’t have yawn contagion.
他们不会有打哈欠传染
So it is connected.
所以 这其中是有关联的
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
我们通过给黑猩猩看一个动画头像研究它们
So that’s what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns.
现在看到的左上角是一个动画头像在打哈欠
And there’s a chimpanzee watching,
一只黑猩猩在看着
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
这只真的猩猩看着
on which we play these animations.
我们在电脑屏幕上放的动画
(Laughter)
[笑声]
So yawn contagion that you’re probably all familiar with —
打哈欠传染大家都很熟悉
and maybe you’re going to start yawning soon now —
可能你马上也要打哈欠了
is something that we share with other animals.
这一点我们和动物是一样的
And that’s related to that whole body channel of synchronization
这就涉及到身体的同步渠道
that underlies empathy,
其中蕴藏着共情
and that is universal in the mammals, basically.
这一点哺乳动物普遍都有
We also study more complex expressions — This is consolation.
我们也研究更复杂的表达方式:安慰
This is a male chimpanzee who
这是一只战败的雄性大猩猩
has lost a fight and he’s screaming,
它在大喊大叫
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
一只小猩猩过来抱住它
and calms him down.
使它安静下来
That’s consolation.
这就是安慰
It’s very similar to human consolation.
跟人类的安慰行为很像
And consolation behavior —
这种安慰行为
(Laughter)
[笑声]
it’s empathy driven.
就是来自共情
Actually, the way to study empathy in human children
事实上 在孩子身上研究共情的方法
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
是让一位家庭成员假装苦恼
and then to see what young children do.
然后看孩子会怎么做
And so it is related to empathy,
这与共情有关
and that’s the kind of expressions we look at.
这就是我们研究的方式
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
我们最近也发表了一项实验 你们可能听说了
It’s on altruism and chimpanzees,
是有关利他主义和黑猩猩的
where the question is: Do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else?
问题是:黑猩猩会关心别人的幸福吗?
And for decades it had been assumed
几十年来人们一直相信
that only humans can do that,
这只有人类能做到
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
只有人类才关心别人的幸福
Now we did a very simple experiment.
我们做了一个非常简单的实验
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
在Lawrenceville的Yerkes野外观测站的
in the field station of Yerkes.
黑猩猩们身上做的
And so that’s how they live.
这是它们的生活状态
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
我们把它们带到一个房间 然后进行实验
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side,
在这个实验中 我们让两只黑猩猩处在并排的空间
and one has a bucket full of tokens,
一只有满满一桶代用币
and the tokens have different meanings.
这些代用币有不同的意思
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
其中一种 只有选它的猩猩会得到食物
the other one feeds both of them.
另一种是两只都会得到食物
So this is a study we did with Vicki Horner.
这个研究是我们和Vicky Hornor做的
And here, you have the two color tokens.
这里有两种颜色的代用币
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
它们有满满一桶
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
它们必须从两种颜色中选一种
You will see how that goes.
来看看发生了什么
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
如果这只猩猩选了红色的
which is the red token in this case,
这个是代表利己的
he needs to give it to us,
它就得把这个代用币交给我们
we pick it up,
我们会拿走它
we put it on a table where there’s two food rewards,
并放在桌子上 桌上有两个食物奖励
but in this case, only the one on the right gets food.
这种情况下只有右边那只得到了食物
The one on the left walks away because she knows already
左边那只走开了 因为它知道
that this is not a good test for her.
这不是个好实验
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
下一个是利他代用币
So the one who makes the choices —
做选择的这只
that’s the interesting part here —
有趣的部分在这
for the one who makes the choices, it doesn’t really matter.
对做选择的这位来说 并不重要
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
它给了我们一枚利他币 两只都得到了食物
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
所以做选择的这只总能得到奖励
So it doesn’t matter whatsoever.
无论怎样都没关系
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
它只是盲目地做选择而已
But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token.
但是我们发现 它们都比较喜欢利他币
So this is the 50 percent line, that’s the random expectation.
这是50%线 这是随机期望
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
尤其是 如果这位同伴注意到自己 它们就选的更多
And if the partner puts pressure on them —
如果这位同伴对它们施压
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them —
或如果这位同伴开始吐水或威胁它们
then the choices go down.
选择就下降
(Laughter)
[笑声]
It’s as if they’re saying,
就好像它们在说
“If you’re not behaving, I’m not going to be pro-social today.”
如果你表现不好 我就不选利他币
And this is what happens without a partner,
而这是没有同伴的情形
when there’s no partner sitting there.
旁边没有同伴坐在那
So we found that the chimpanzees do care
所以我们发现黑猩猩们
about the well-being of somebody else —
真的关心他人的生活
especially, these are other members of their own group.
特别是对它们的群体成员
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
我想提一下 最后一个实验
is our fairness study.
是公正研究
And so this became a very famous study.
这也是一个很有名的研究
And there are now many more,
现在做的越来越多了
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
因为十年前我们做了这个后
it became very well-known.
它就出名了
And we did that originally with Capuchin monkeys.
我们最初的实验对象是卷尾猴
And I’m going to show you the first experiment that we did.
我会给你们看一下我们最初的实验
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
现在都已经有对狗 鸟
and with chimpanzees.
和黑猩猩做的实验了
But with Sarah Brosnan, we started out with Capuchin monkeys.
最开始 我们是和Sarah Brosnan对卷尾猴做的
So what we did is we put two Capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
我们把两只卷尾猴放在相邻的房间
Again, these animals, live in a group, they know each other.
同样的 这种动物生活在一个群体 都知道彼此
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
我们把它们分离开来 放在一个实验房间
And there’s a very simple task that they need to do.
这是个对它们来说很简单的任务
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
如果我们给它们黄瓜
the two monkeys side-by-side,
两只猴子肩并肩
they’re perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
理想情况下它们要一直重复25次
So cucumber, even though it’s only really water in my opinion,
我觉得黄瓜除了水没别的了
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
但对它们来说挺好
Now if you give the partner grapes —
现在如果你给这个同伴葡萄
the food preferences of my Capuchin monkeys
我的卷尾猴偏爱葡萄
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket —
这符合超市里的价格
and so if you give them grapes —
所以如果你给它们葡萄
it’s a far better food —
这是他们喜欢的食物
then you create inequity between them.
那你就在制造不平等
So that’s the experiment we did.
我们的实验就是这样做的
Recently, we videotaped it with new monkeys
最近 我们又拍摄了一些
who’d never done the task,
没做过这个任务的猴子
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
我们认为它们会有更强烈的反应
and that turned out to be right.
果然如此
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
左边是得到黄瓜的猴子
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
右边是得到葡萄的猴子
The one who gets cucumber —
拿到黄瓜的这个猴子
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
注意到第一片黄瓜很好
The first piece she eats.
它吃掉了第一片
Then she sees the other one getting grape,
接着它看到另一只猴子得到了葡萄
and you will see what happens.
看看发生了什么
So she gives a rock to us. That’s the task.
它递给我们石头 实验就是这么设计的
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
然后我们会给它一片黄瓜 它吃掉了
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
另一只也给我们石头
And that’s what she does.
它也那样做了
And she gets a grape…
它得到一颗葡萄
and eats it.
吃掉了
The other one sees that.
另一只看到了
She gives a rock to us now, gets, again, cucumber.
它又给我们石头 又得到了黄瓜
(Laughter)
[笑声]
(Laughter ends)
[笑声结束]
She tests a rock now against the wall.
它在墙上敲石头
She needs to give it to us.
它应该把石头给我们
And she gets cucumber again.
它又得到了黄瓜
(Laughter)
[笑声]
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
你看到的就像是华尔街抗议活动
(Laughter)
[笑声]
(Applause)
[掌声]
I still have two minutes left —
还有两分钟
let me tell you a funny story about this.
让我来讲个好笑的故事
This study became very famous and
这个研究很有名气
we got a lot of comments,
我们收到了很多评论
especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers.
尤其是来自人类学家 经济学家和哲学家
They didn’t like this at all.
他们一点也不喜欢这个
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
因为我相信他们早已在心里打定主意
that fairness is a very complex issue,
公平是个很复杂的问题
and that animals can not have it.
动物是不可能有的
And so one philosopher even wrote us
有一位哲学家甚至写信给我们说
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
猴子不可能有公平感
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
因为公平是在法国大革命中才被提出的
(Laughter)
[笑声]
And another one wrote a whole chapter
还有一位给我们写了一大段
saying that he would believe it
说如果那只
had something to do with fairness,
得到葡萄的猴子拒绝葡萄
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
他才相信这和公正有关
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who’s been doing this with chimpanzees,
好笑的是在这个实验期间
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees where,
Sarah Brosnan对几组黑猩猩进行实验
indeed, the one who would get the grape
事实上 有只猩猩宁愿不接受葡萄
would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape.
直到它的同伴拿到它才接受
So we’re getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
所以这和人类的公平很接近了
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for a while.
我觉得哲学家们需要重新思考他们的哲学
So let me summarize.
我来总结一下
I believe there’s an evolved morality.
我相信有一种进化而来的道德
I think morality is much more than what I’ve been talking about,
远远比我们刚才讨论的要复杂
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
但如果没有在灵长类中发现的这些要素
that we find in other primates, which are empathy and consolation,
比如共鸣 安慰 亲社会倾向 互惠以及公正感
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
道德是不可能存在的
And so we work on these particular issues
我们也致力于这个特殊的课题
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
看看我们是否能从头开始创造一种道德
without necessarily god and religion involved,
不涉及神和宗教
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
看我们如何去进化道德
And I thank you for your attention.
谢谢大家
(Applause)
[掌声]

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译制信息
视频概述

动物和人类一样会同情他人,拥有公正感吗?

听录译者

收集自网络

翻译译者

Shea

审核员

审核员GS

视频来源

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcJxRqTs5nk

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