Another big thing, theme of the book is that
there’s such a thing as a desirable difficulty.
Can you explain what that is and why it can be advantages?
Yeah, so this is this really interesting notion comes from
umm…these husband-and-wife psychology team at UCLA I call the Bjork’s
我称之为比约克 他们研究学习 看起来他们对学习非常感兴趣
and they study with learning, look they were very interested in learning.
And you know the conventional notion with learning is
to the extent that I make your task easier,
you would learn more.
If I allow you to read physics,
learned about physics in a book that is written beautifully and clearly.
You will learn physics better than if I give you
a terribly written book translated from the German.
嗯 他们说你熟知的这些是对的 但是有例外
Umm… And they said what you know that’s true, but there are exceptions.
There are also cases where if I make the tasks
slightly harder for you, you’ll learn better.
Because if I make it a little bit harder maybe you’ll be forced to concentrate more
or maybe you will maybe you have to read it three times instead of once.
And in that fact that’s what I want you to do I want you to read it
I want to force you to read it three times because you’ll get it.
So I began to explore all these areas where
you could distinguish desirable from undesirable difficulties.
Was there a category of obstacles
that had the net effect of making you further ahead?
I love that idea. I… that the section in the book where I say,
“Look! Let’s look at things that we conventionally understand as
undesirable difficulties and see whether there are circumstances
and for certain kinds of people,
for whom those kinds of difficulties, are desirable.”
So dyslexia would be a classic example.
I have a whole chapter in that book on dyslexic entrepreneurs.
Umm…there’s an example of being written on the business
I always forget within the book
So this is really interesting fact that
a very large percentage, a much larger percentage of
successful entrepreneurs are dyslexic than
in the general population.
And many of the Richard Branson, Paul Fowler,
Charles Schwab, John Chambers at Cisco,
还有 克雷格·麦考 大哥大的创始人
I could go on, Craig McCaw, the cellphone pioneer.
The list of these guys are all dyslexic, right?
David Neeleman at JetBlue,
and if you talk to them they will explain to you that
they don’t think they succeeded in spite of their disability,
they think they do succeeded because of it.
对于他们 如果你还想 我曾经
Umm…for them and if you want and I sat down with
two dozens of these guys.
哦 天呐 我对我的书的开头非常着迷
Oh god, I get so obsessed at the beginning of my book
as the main in the middle of my book was talking to dyslexic entrepreneurs.
Umm… And their stories are all the same,
they all look back and will tell you you know if it hadn’t have been
the fact that I couldn’t read or read well
in second and third, in fourth grade. I would never have…
And they start listing all the things they were forced to do
that proved to be alternatively advantageous.
I would never learn how to listen.
I would never been forced in second grade that I was
I made friends with the smartest kid in the class
and I basically convinced him to do my homework for me.
I can’t tell you how many times I heard that from this one.
So what they’re learning at that age they’re learning delegation.
They are learning how to communicate with other people, motivate other people.
Form a team, I mean
they… and they do that in,
Brian Grazer, the Hollywood producer who’s dyslexic.
His whole things was a
he would, he figured out how,
he would fail in tests
and he would go in and he would talk his grade up from D to C.
So from the age of this high.
He’s learning to negotiation, right?
最后 他进大学时 在这个方面表现突出
By the end, by the time he’s in college, he’s brilliant at it.
And then what he do? He becomes a Hollywood producer.
What is that about?
It’s about negotiation among other things.
And he’s been practicing his entire life.
So this is a weird thing where he would say as difficult as my dyslexia was.
And for all of these people, their childhood were not fun.
I mean I interviewed Gary Cohn, who’s the president of Goldman,
who’s per family the dyslexic.
His childhood just sounds, I mean, dark and miserable.
No one thought he was capable of doing schoolwork.
They thought he was,
they were amazed he even could graduate from high school.
嗯 尽管这样 他们回顾过去都会说
Umm… Despite that they all look back and say
you know it was a desirable difficulty, it was…
I was taught I was forced to learn stuff.
I would never even have thought about.
Umm… So that’s that I think that’s such a
that’s a really beautiful idea.
Definitely, but you also mentioned
there are a disproportionate number of dyslexic people in prisons.
So what’s the perfect storm to make a difficulty desirable？
That’s the, that’s the, that’s the million-dollar question.
I don’t think anyone,
I don’t think there’s any kind of simple answer and I think it depends on who you are,
and what your capabilities are and what the support system around you are
and how many other disadvantages you have.
I mean it’s an, but I,
that’s the kind of conversation I want to start with this book.
So it’s classic parents conversation.
I… I would like my child to have as few as possible undesirable difficulties
and as many as possible desirable difficulties.
But that’s a very different kind of conversation then
I think my job as a parent
is to remove every obstacle from the path of my child,
which I think, there are parents who do that thinking that’s gonna
put there child ahead not realizing, no.
In order to learn the things that really need to be learned.
We require a certain level of adversity.
The trick is figuring out what that adversity ought to look like, right?
And that’s like I said something that’s that is a
can only be decided on a case-by-case basis.
This is gonna be different for you than it’s for me
or for any of this, you know for Gary Cohen get Goldman
who probably have IQ of 150.
And who has a grandfather who totally believed in him
and the person who he was the closest in.
He had two and it’s pretty strong family around him.
It’s got three really big advantages, right?
Someone believes in them, high level of native intelligence,
he can go through a lot of Hell.
It’s cool and still come out okay.
But now imagine someone who didn’t have
a stratospheric IQ, whose family wasn’t supportive
and who had other disadvantages,
had woke up every morning hungry.
Now it’s hard to see that their dyslexia
would easily be a desirable difficulty, right?
That sounds to me that would be the straw broke the camel’s back
if I might make all kinds of metaphors.
但是 这取决于 你知道那种
But umm… so it depends, you know sort of…
It’s a complicated question.