乔 这有点吓人啊
Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.
是的
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.
感觉世界变成了一副
CA: It feels like the world is in a place
我们很久都没见过的样子
that we haven’t seen for a long time.
人们对于左右派政见的争执方式
People don’t just disagree in the way that we’re familiar with,
变得很陌生
on the left-right political divide.
人们之间有着更深的分歧
There are much deeper differences afoot.
到底发生了什么 我们如何走到了这一步
What on earth is going on, and how did we get here?
这次确实与以往不同
JH: This is different.
有种世界末日的感觉
There’s a much more apocalyptic sort of feeling.
皮尤研究中心的调查显示
Survey research by Pew Research shows
一派对另一派的感觉
that the degree to which we feel that the other side is not just —
已经不仅仅是不喜欢 而是强烈地厌恶
we don’t just dislike them; we strongly dislike them,
认为对方是国家的威胁
and we think that they are a threat to the nation.
持这种极端态度的人的比率不断上升
Those numbers have been going up and up,
在两派中都超过半数
and those are over 50 percent now on both sides.
人们感到害怕
People are scared,
因为这次不同于以往 分歧程度更强烈
because it feels like this is different than before; it’s much more intense.
每当遇到这些社会难题
Whenever I look at any sort of social puzzle,
我就会运用道德心理学的3项基本原理
I always apply the three basic principles of moral psychology,
它们也有助于分析现在的局势
and I think they’ll help us here.
在谈论政治的时候
So the first thing that you have to always keep in mind
你首先要牢记的是
when you’re thinking about politics
我们是有部落性的
is that we’re tribal.
我们是向着部落性进化的
We evolved for tribalism.
关于人类社会性有一个最简单精炼的见解
One of the simplest and greatest insights into human social nature
来自于贝都因人的谚语
is the Bedouin proverb:
我与哥哥相互敌对
“Me against my brother;
我和哥哥一起对抗表哥
me and my brother against our cousin;
我和哥哥表哥一起对抗外人
me and my brother and cousins against the stranger.”
这种部落文化让我们形成大社会
And that tribalism allowed us to create large societies
让我们走出丛林 脱离小圈子
and to come together in order to compete with others.
团结一致对抗外敌
That brought us out of the jungle and out of small groups,
但这也意味着 我们面临无尽的斗争
but it means that we have eternal conflict.
而我们需要想的是
The question you have to look at is:
社会中的哪些方面加剧了斗争
What aspects of our society are making that more bitter,
哪些缓和了敌对
and what are calming them down?
这真是一个黑暗的谚语
CA: That’s a very dark proverb.
你是说在某种程度上 这种思维在大多数人的思维中
You’re saying that that’s actually baked into most people’s mental wiring
已经根深蒂固了吗
at some level?
绝对的 这只是人类社会认知的一个基本方面
JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just a basic aspect of human social cognition.
但人们也可以和平地生活在一起
But we can also live together really peacefully,
而且人类也发明了方法 把战争转化成游戏
and we’ve invented all kinds of fun ways of, like, playing war.
比如说竞技体育 政治等
I mean, sports, politics —
通过这类活动 我们能释放部落天性
these are all ways that we get to exercise this tribal nature
又不会伤害他人
without actually hurting anyone.
我们也很擅长贸易 探险和结交新朋友
We’re also really good at trade and exploration and meeting new people.
所以我们要看到部落性有好有坏
So you have to see our tribalism as something that goes up or down —
部落性并不意味着我们注定要一直敌对
it’s not like we’re doomed to always be fighting each other,
但我们永远难享世界和平
but we’ll never have world peace.
部落的大小可以改变
CA: The size of that tribe can shrink or expand.
对
JH: Right.
所谓”我们”和”他们”或”外人”
CA: The size of what we consider “us”
这些范畴
and what we consider “other” or “them”
都是可变的
can change.
有些人认为 这个过程会永远进行下去
And some people believed that process could continue indefinitely.
没错
JH: That’s right.
而近来 我们的部落意识进一步加深了
CA: And we were indeed expanding the sense of tribe for a while.
确实 而且我觉得
JH: So this is, I think,
我们现在面临的 是一种新的左右之分
where we’re getting at what’s possibly the new left-right distinction.
传统的左右派分歧
I mean, the left-right as we’ve all inherited it,
来自于劳动人民和资产阶级的对立
comes out of the labor versus capital distinction,
还有工人阶级 马克思主义
and the working class, and Marx.
但现在 我们越来越多地看到
But I think what we’re seeing now, increasingly,
几乎所有西方民主社会都出现分歧
is a divide in all the Western democracies
一派关注的是国家层面
between the people who want to stop at nation,
他们倾向于各国各自为政
the people who are more parochial —
我这么说并不是贬义
and I don’t mean that in a bad way —
这些人归属感更强
people who have much more of a sense of being rooted,
他们关心自己的 社区 城市 国家
they care about their town, their community and their nation.
而另一派则反对各自为政
And then those who are anti-parochial and who —
当我对这个概念感到困惑时 我就会想到约翰列侬的歌
whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song “Imagine.”
歌词说 想象世界上没有国家 没有为国而战 没有为国捐躯
“Imagine there’s no countries, nothing to kill or die for.”
这些人推崇全球治理
And so these are the people who want more global governance,
他们不喜欢主权国家 不喜欢地域边界
they don’t like nation states, they don’t like borders.
这样的思想盛行于欧洲
You see this all over Europe as well.
有一个很擅长比喻的人 其实他叫莎士比亚
There’s a great metaphor guy — actually, his name is Shakespeare —
10年前 他在英国提出
writing ten years ago in Britain.
这样一个比喻
He had a metaphor:
我们要做开门人还是关门人呢
“Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?”
英国民众在这一问题上的比例是52:48
And Britain is divided 52-48 on that point.
美国的分歧程度也与此相当
And America is divided on that point, too.
这样的话 我们这些听着甲壳虫乐队成长起来的人
CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles
一直接受着嬉皮士文化 憧憬着一个紧密相联的世界
and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world —
那种憧憬十分理想主义 我们难以想象 怎么会有人不喜欢那样的世界呢
it felt so idealistic and “how could anyone think badly about that?”
而你却告诉我们 事实上
And what you’re saying is that, actually,
现在很多人都觉得 这种想法不仅是愚蠢
millions of people today feel that that isn’t just silly;
更是危险又错误的 令人恐惧
it’s actually dangerous and wrong, and they’re scared of it.
我认为最大的问题 尤其是在欧洲 当然美国也存在
JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here,
就是移民问题
is the issue of immigration.
而且我认为 为此 我们必须仔细考虑
And I think this is where we have to look very carefully
社会学中关于多样性和移民的分析
at the social science about diversity and immigration.
一个问题一旦被政治化
Once something becomes politicized,
一旦变成了左派拥护右派反对的事情
once it becomes something that the left loves and the right —
那么 即便是社会学家也未必能不偏不倚地看到它
then even the social scientists can’t think straight about it.
首先 多样性有很多积极作用
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.
它显然孕育了许多发明创造
It clearly creates more innovation.
大力促进了美国的经济发展
The American economy has grown enormously from it.
多样性和移民带来很多好处
Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things.
而全球化支持者没有看到
But what the globalists, I think, don’t see,
也不想看到的是
what they don’t want to see,
民族多样性削弱了社会资本和人与人的信任
is that ethnic diversity cuts social capital and trust.
《独自打保龄》的作者罗伯特·帕特南
There’s a very important study by Robert Putnam,
进行过一项重要研究
the author of “Bowling Alone,”
从社会资本数据库中得出结论
looking at social capital databases.
一般来讲 人们越是觉得彼此一致
And basically, the more people feel that they are the same,
就越容易相互信任
the more they trust each other,
就越可能通过再分配 实践福利国家
the more they can have a redistributionist welfare state.
斯堪的纳维亚国家之所以那么好
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful
正是因为他们一直都是人口较少的单一民族国家
because they have this legacy of being small, homogenous countries.
这也使他们成为进步的福利国家
And that leads to a progressive welfare state,
持进步的左倾价值观念 会想说
a set of progressive left-leaning values, which says,
敞开大门吧 世界多美好啊
“Drawbridge down! The world is a great place.
叙利亚人民正在遭受苦难 我们必须接纳他们
People in Syria are suffering — we must welcome them in.”
这会是一件了不起的事
And it’s a beautiful thing.
但是 今年夏天我去多瑞典
But if, and I was in Sweden this summer,
如果在瑞典 这种左倾观点完全政治正确
if the discourse in Sweden is fairly politically correct
人民不能批评这种观点的话
and they can’t talk about the downsides,
那就会造成难民大量涌入瑞典
you end up bringing a lot of people in.
从而削弱社会资本
That’s going to cut social capital,
那就难以维持福利国家了
it makes it hard to have a welfare state
那瑞典就会变得像当下的美国一样
and they might end up, as we have in America,
成为种族分隔的社会
with a racially divided, visibly racially divided, society.
所以 这样想来真的让人不安
So this is all very uncomfortable to talk about.
但无论是在欧洲还是在美国
But I think this is the thing, especially in Europe and for us, too,
我们都必须正视这一点
we need to be looking at.
你是说理性的人们
CA: You’re saying that people of reason,
他们自认为不是种族主义者
people who would consider themselves not racists,
而是 有道德的 正直的人
but moral, upstanding people,
他们的一个基本观点是 人与人之间有很大区别
have a rationale that says humans are just too different;
所以 要完全接纳截然不同的人
that we’re in danger of overloading our sense of what humans are capable of,
实在超出了人类的能力范围
by mixing in people who are too different.
没错 不过我可以表述得委婉一些
JH: Yes, but I can make it much more palatable
这并非针对种族
by saying it’s not necessarily about race.
而是关乎文化
It’s about culture.
一位叫凯伦·施滕纳的政治学家进行过一项出色的研究
There’s wonderful work by a political scientist named Karen Stenner,
结果显示 当人们感觉到
who shows that when people have a sense
彼此是团结的 相同的
that we are all united, we’re all the same,
很多人就自然产生独裁倾向
there are many people who have a predisposition to authoritarianism.
人们没感觉到移民会对
Those people aren’t particularly racist
社会和道德秩序产生威胁的时候
when they feel as through there’s not a threat
并不会表现出种族主义倾向
to our social and moral order.
但是如果你不停地跟他们说
But if you prime them experimentally
移民与我们不同 社会正在分裂
by thinking we’re coming apart, people are getting more different,
那他们就会变得种族主义 仇视外族 想清除异类
then they get more racist, homophobic, they want to kick out the deviants.
所以是 在一定程度上 人们是产生了这种独裁反应
So it’s in part that you get an authoritarian reaction.
所以说 左派人士
The left, following through the Lennonist line —
信奉着约翰·列侬的歌词
the John Lennon line —
最终走向独裁反应
does things that create an authoritarian reaction.
我们看到 美国的另类右派是这样的
We’re certainly seeing that in America with the alt-right.
英国以及整个欧洲都有这样的情况
We saw it in Britain, we’ve seen it all over Europe.
但其中也有积极的方面
But the more positive part of that
那就是我们发现 地区主义者 国家主义者 其实是正确的
is that I think the localists, or the nationalists, are actually right —
就是说 如果强调的是文化共性
that, if you emphasize our cultural similarity,
那么 种族问题就显得不再那么重要了
then race doesn’t actually matter very much.
所以 对移民采取同化措施
So an assimilationist approach to immigration
就能避免很多问题
removes a lot of these problems.
而且 如果你想要的是高福利国家
And if you value having a generous welfare state,
那么你必须强调 我们大家是一样的
you’ve got to emphasize that we’re all the same.
好的 移民增加及其造成的恐惧
CA: OK, so rising immigration and fears about that
是造成当前分裂状况的原因之一
are one of the causes of the current divide.
其他还有什么原因呢
What are other causes?
道德心理学的另一个原理
JH: The next principle of moral psychology
是直觉先于理性
is that intuitions come first, strategic reasoning second.
你可能听说过”动机性推理”
You’ve probably heard the term “motivated reasoning”
或是”证实偏差”这些心理学术语
or “confirmation bias.”
有一些有趣的研究
There’s some really interesting work
是说我们的高等智力和语言能力
on how our high intelligence and our verbal abilities
不帮助我们寻求真理
might have evolved not to help us find out the truth,
而让我们试图操控他人 维护自己的名誉
but to help us manipulate each other, defend our reputation …
我们真的很会为自己辩护
We’re really, really good at justifying ourselves.
而再把集体利益也考虑进来时
And when you bring group interests into account,
就不再是个人 而是我的集体对你的集体
so it’s not just me, it’s my team versus your team,
如果你拿出证据来说我们是错的
whereas if you’re evaluating evidence that your side is wrong,
我们绝不能接受
we just can’t accept that.
这就是谁也没法赢得政治辩论的原因
So this is why you can’t win a political argument.
辩论时
If you’re debating something,
你没法靠理性或证据来说服别人
you can’t persuade the person with reasons and evidence,
因为这些都不起作用
because that’s not the way reasoning works.
所以现在 我们再讲讲网络
So now, give us the internet, give us Google:
我听说奥巴马出生在肯尼亚
“I heard that Barack Obama was born in Kenya.
让我来搜一下 天呐 1000万条结果 他果然是肯尼亚人
Let me Google that — oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!”
其实这让很多人感到惊讶和不快
CA: So this has come as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of people.
对技术乐观的人总把社交媒体看作是
Social media has often been framed by techno-optimists
联通世界 联系人们的强大力量
as this great connecting force that would bring people together.
但却不料出现了很多反作用
And there have been some unexpected counter-effects to that.
确实如此
JH: That’s right.
也正是因此 我才会欣赏
That’s why I’m very enamored of yin-yang views
关于人性和左右派的阴阳观点
of human nature and left-right —
每一方都在部分方面是正确的
that each side is right about certain things,
但对其他事情则不尽然
but then it goes blind to other things.
左派通常认为人性本善
And so the left generally believes that human nature is good:
所以大家聚到一起 消除嫌隙 一切都会很好
bring people together, knock down the walls and all will be well.
右派 不是自由派而是社会保守派
The right — social conservatives, not libertarians —
一般来讲 他们认为人是贪婪的
social conservatives generally believe people can be greedy
是下流又自私的
and sexual and selfish,
因此必须要制定规则 制定限制措施
and we need regulation, and we need restrictions.
如果贸然撤掉边界
So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,
允许全世界所有的人自由交流
allow people to communicate all over the world,
你得到的只会是色情和种族歧视
you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.
请再为我们解释得详细一点吧
CA: So help us understand.
你提到的这些关于人性的原理一直都存在
These principles of human nature have been with us forever.
但究竟是发生了什么变化 加深分裂呢
What’s changed that’s deepened this feeling of division?
我们必须要综合6到10个不同线索
JH: You have to see six to ten different threads all coming together.
我来举几个线索
I’ll just list a couple of them.
在美国 事实上美国和欧洲国家
So in America, one of the big — actually, America and Europe —
一个重要的改变是二战
one of the biggest ones is World War II.
乔·亨里奇等人曾做过一个有趣的研究
There’s interesting research from Joe Henrich and others
是说 如果你的国家发生了战争
that says if your country was at war,
而你当时正值年少
especially when you were young,
30年后 再用公地悲剧或囚徒困境
then we test you 30 years later in a commons dilemma
对你进行测试
or a prisoner’s dilemma,
测试结果很有可能会是 你是合作型的
you’re more cooperative.
这还是因为我们的部落性
Because of our tribal nature, if you’re —
二战时 我的父母都还是青少年
my parents were teenagers during World War II,
那时候 他们会出去找些废铜烂铁
and they would go out looking for scraps of aluminum
希望为战争贡献点力量
to help the war effort.
我是说 那是一种团结一致的氛围
I mean, everybody pulled together.
这些人长大以后
And so then these people go on,
进入商界 政界
they rise up through business and government,
走上领导岗位
they take leadership positions.
他们就很擅长妥协与合作
They’re really good at compromise and cooperation.
到了90年代 他们退休了
They all retire by the ’90s.
领导社会的变成了婴儿潮时期出生的一代
So we’re left with baby boomers by the end of the ’90s.
他们的少年时代 是在1968年及其后
And their youth was spent fighting each other within each country,
在自己的国家 在相互斗争中度过的
in 1968 and afterwards.
二战一代 这最伟大一代的逝去
The loss of the World War II generation, “The Greatest Generation,”
的确是巨大的损失
is huge.
这是其一
So that’s one.
其二 我们国家的两个政党的净化
Another, in America, is the purification of the two parties.
过去美国有崇尚自由的共和党和趋于保守的民主党
There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.
所以 在20世纪中叶 美国是真正的两党执政
So America had a mid-20th century that was really bipartisan.
但是 由于各种因素的影响 事情发生了变化
But because of a variety of factors that started things moving,
到了90年代 就变成了纯粹的自由党和保守党
by the 90’s, we had a purified liberal party and conservative party.
所以现在两党党员差别巨大
So now, the people in either party really are different,
甚至一方不愿意自己的孩子与对方党派的人结婚
and we really don’t want our children to marry them,
但在60年代还不存在这样的问题
which, in the ’60s, didn’t matter very much.
所以 这也是一条
So, the purification of the parties.
第三就是互联网的出现 如我刚才所说
Third is the internet and, as I said,
它成为了后此谬误和妖魔化的催化剂
it’s just the most amazing stimulant for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.
现在网上的舆论确实非常让人困惑
CA: The tone of what’s happening on the internet now is quite troubling.
我刚刚在推特上大体浏览了一下关于大选的话题
I just did a quick search on Twitter about the election
看到有这么两条推文排在一起
and saw two tweets next to each other.
一个 是配着一张种族主义涂鸦的
One, against a picture of racist graffiti:
说 这真是令人厌恶
“This is disgusting!
特朗普给我们的国家带来了丑恶
Ugliness in this country, brought to us by #Trump.”
紧挨着的一条是
And then the next one is:
(书本)致敬页竟然是献给希拉里·克林顿 真是令人厌恶
“Cliton Hillary dedication page. Disgusting!”
厌恶一词的反复出现令我感到不安
So this idea of “disgust” is troubling to me.
遇到分歧 你可以和对方争论 可以不同意对方的观点
Because you can have an argument or a disagreement about something,
也可以生气
you can get angry at someone.
至于厌恶 我记得你说过 这个词层次更深
Disgust, I’ve heard you say, takes things to a much deeper level.
是的 厌恶一词确实不同
JH: That’s right. Disgust is different.
生气 你知道的 我是有孩子的
Anger — you know, I have kids.
他们一天能打上10架
They fight 10 times a day,
但依然会说上30次我爱你
and they love each other 30 times a day.
生气就是这样反反复复
You just go back and forth: you get angry, you’re not angry;
这会儿生气 过一会儿又不气了
you’re angry, you’re not angry.
但是厌恶就不一样了
But disgust is different.
厌恶使人失去人性 变成怪物
Disgust paints the person as subhuman, monstrous,
丧失道德
deformed, morally deformed.
厌恶就像是不褪色的墨迹
Disgust is like indelible ink.
约翰·戈特曼曾做过一个婚姻咨询方面的研究
There’s research from John Gottman on marital therapy.
注意观察 如果夫妇一方脸上显出厌恶或是轻蔑的神情
If you look at the faces — if one of the couple shows disgust or contempt,
那么他们不久后多半是要离婚的
that’s a predictor that they’re going to get divorced soon,
如果他们只是表现出生气的样子 则并不能说明什么
whereas if they show anger, that doesn’t predict anything,
因为只要处理得当 生气其实是件好事
because if you deal with anger well, it actually is good.
所以说 这次大选与以往不同
So this election is different.
特朗普个人就曾多次使用厌恶一词
Donald Trump personally uses the word “disgust” a lot.
这个人非常敏感 所以厌恶之情很容易影响他
He’s very germ-sensitive, so disgust does matter a lot —
这是他的一个特点
more for him, that’s something unique to him —
如果我们一次次丑化对方
but as we demonize each other more,
从二元论的观点来看
and again, through the Manichaean worldview,
这个世界是善恶间的斗争
the idea that the world is a battle between good and evil
当我们对彼此的丑化越来越多
as this has been ramping up,
我们就很可能 不仅说对方错了 我不喜欢他
we’re more likely not just to say they’re wrong or I don’t like them,
而是会认为 他们是魔鬼 是邪恶的
but we say they’re evil, they’re satanic,
是令人厌恶 令人反感的
they’re disgusting, they’re revolting.
那么我们就不想和他们有任何关系
And then we want nothing to do with them.
这种情况现在随处可见 比如校园
And that’s why I think we’re seeing it, for example, on campus now.
我们想让对方滚出校园
We’re seeing more the urge to keep people off campus,
让他们闭嘴 让他们滚得远远的
silence them, keep them away.
我很担心这代年轻人
I’m afraid that this whole generation of young people,
如果他们一开始接触政治 就接触到厌恶之情的话
if their introduction to politics involves a lot of disgust,
那么他们长大后也不会想和政治有任何瓜葛
they’re not going to want to be involved in politics as they get older.
那我们该怎么办呢
CA: So how do we deal with that?
我们应该如何消除厌恶呢
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?
我们依然难以以理性与之对抗
JH: You can’t do it with reasons.
我觉得
I think …
关于厌恶 我研究很多年了 我常常思考情绪这一点
I studied disgust for many years, and I think about emotions a lot.
我想 厌恶的反面其实是爱
And I think that the opposite of disgust is actually love.
而爱 就像是…
Love is all about, like …
选择厌恶就是选择自我封锁 画地为牢
Disgust is closing off, borders.
而爱则是消弭隔阂
Love is about dissolving walls.
所以 我认为 人际关系
So personal relationships, I think,
可能是我们最有力的武器
are probably the most powerful means we have.
也许你会厌恶一个群体
You can be disgusted by a group of people,
但有一天 你认识了这个群体中的某一个人
but then you meet a particular person
并且发现对方很可爱
and you genuinely discover that they’re lovely.
之后 慢慢地 厌恶就会渐渐消融
And then gradually that chips away or changes your category as well.
但可悲的是 过去 在美国人
The tragedy is, Americans used to be much more mixed up in the their towns
政治倾向不同的人混居在一起
by left-right or politics.
但现在 人们的居住格局也分隔开了
And now that it’s become this great moral divide,
大量证据表明 很多人选择
there’s a lot of evidence that we’re moving to be near people
与政治倾向一致的人做邻居
who are like us politically.
于是人们认识不同阵营人的机会就变得很小了
It’s harder to find somebody who’s on the other side.
一派住在这边 另一派住在遥远的另一边
So they’re over there, they’re far away.
两派人难以建立个人关系
It’s harder to get to know them.
那总的来说
CA: What would you say to someone or say to Americans,
你能对美国民众说点什么吗
people generally,
我们要更多地去了解他人的哪些方面
about what we should understand about each other
才能渐渐摆脱
that might help us rethink for a minute
厌恶之情的操控呢
this “disgust” instinct?
是的
JH: Yes.
有一点很重要 值得牢记
A really important thing to keep in mind —
政治学家艾伦·阿布拉莫维茨曾做过一项研究
there’s research by political scientist Alan Abramowitz,
研究显示美国的民主正陷于
showing that American democracy is increasingly governed
负面党派竞争之中
by what’s called “negative partisanship.”
意思是说 以前是因为喜欢一个候选人
That means you think, OK there’s a candidate,
才投他的票
you like the candidate, you vote for the candidate.
现在 两党极力丑化对方
But with the rise of negative advertising
这种负面宣传又被社交媒体放大
and social media and all sorts of other trends,
渐渐地 选举变成了
increasingly, the way elections are done
极力丑化对手
is that each side tries to make the other side so horrible, so awful,
那选民就自然该投己方了
that you’ll vote for my guy by default.
在竞选中 我们投票就成了为反对而投
And so as we more and more vote against the other side
而不是为支持而投
and not for our side,
你必须记住一点就是 例如左派人士
you have to keep in mind that if people are on the left,
他们会想 我一直都觉得共和党不好
they think, “Well, I used to think that Republicans were bad,
现在特朗普果然验证了我的想法
but now Donald Trump proves it.
所以现在 我可以把每个共和党人
And now every Republican, I can paint with all the things
都看作如特朗普一样
that I think about Trump.”
而这并不一定是事实
And that’s not necessarily true.
而对于已方的候选人 他们也不见得喜欢
They’re generally not very happy with their candidate.
这届选举是负面竞争最严重的一次
This is the most negative partisanship election in American history.
所以首先 你要把对候选人的情感
So you have to first separate your feelings about the candidate
和对其所在党派的整体情感区分开来
from your feelings about the people who are given a choice.
你还要意识到
And then you have to realize that,
因为我们各自生活在分离的道德世界
because we all live in a separate moral world —
我在书中打过比方 说我们陷于矩阵
the metaphor I use in the book is that we’re all trapped in “The Matrix,”
每一个道德群体就是一个矩阵 一种两厢情愿的幻觉
or each moral community is a matrix, a consensual hallucination.
如果你身处蓝色矩阵
And so if you’re within the blue matrix,
所有的事都完全针对另一方
everything’s completely compelling that the other side —
认为他们是老顽固 种族主义者 是世上最坏的人
they’re troglodytes, they’re racists, they’re the worst people in the world,
甚至你还能拿出证据来支撑自己的观点
and you have all the facts to back that up.
但是住在你隔壁的某个人
But somebody in the next house from yours
可能与你处于不同的道德矩阵
is living in a different moral matrix.
他们活在不同的情境中
They live in a different video game,
看到完全不同的事实
and they see a completely different set of facts.
对于国家局势 每个人都看到不同的威胁
And each one sees different threats to the country.
当我身处中间
And what I’ve found from being in the middle
试图弄清两边的立场时 才发现他们都是对的
and trying to understand both sides is: both sides are right.
这个国家面临很多威胁
There are a lot of threats to this country,
任何一边都不可能认识到所有威胁
and each side is constitutionally incapable of seeing them all.
你是说我们需要一种新的同理心吗
CA: So, are you saying that we almost need a new type of empathy?
传统意义上 同理心是指
Empathy is traditionally framed as:
噢 我对你的痛苦感同身受
“Oh, I feel your pain. I can put myself in your shoes.”
我们把同理心运用到穷苦的人 受苦受难的人身上
And we apply it to the poor, the needy, the suffering.
而通常不会延伸到所谓外人身上
We don’t usually apply it to people who we feel as other,
或是我们厌恶的人身上
or we’re disgusted by.
是的 确实如此
JH: No. That’s right.
那如果能做到这种新的同理心的话会怎样呢
CA: What would it look like to build that type of empathy?
事实上 我觉得…
JH: Actually, I think …
同理心是心理学界的大热门
Empathy is a very, very hot topic in psychology,
在左派人士中也非常流行
and it’s a very popular word on the left in particular.
同理心是好事 尤其是对遭受最多苦难的人
Empathy is a good thing, and empathy for the preferred classes of victims.
左派能够对其认为重要的群体产生同理心
So it’s important to empathize
这点很重要
with the groups that we on the left think are so important.
这很容易 因为这种同理心是为你加分的
That’s easy to do, because you get points for that.
但如果在难以同理的时候 还能产生同理心 那才是真正的加分
But empathy really should get you points if you do it when it’s hard to do.
而且 我觉得…
And, I think …
我们花了50年的时间来解决种族问题
You know, we had a long 50-year period of dealing with our race problems
和法律上的歧视
and legal discrimination,
这是我们很长时期内的首要任务
and that was our top priority for a long time
现在仍是如此
and it still is important.
但是今年
But I think this year,
我希望人们能够注意到
I’m hoping it will make people see
我们还面临着另一个生死攸关的重大威胁
that we have an existential threat on our hands.
迄今为止 左右派别的分歧
Our left-right divide, I believe,
是我们面临的最重要的分歧
is by far the most important divide we face.
我们也还有种族 性别 同性恋等问题
We still have issues about race and gender and LGBT,
但派别分歧是未来50年里最紧要的问题
but this is the urgent need of the next 50 years,
而且问题不会自动解决
and things aren’t going to get better on their own.
这就要求我们必须进行很多制度上的改革
So we’re going to need to do a lot of institutional reforms,
我们可以深入讨论一下
and we could talk about that,
但那将会是漫长又缥缈的对话
but that’s like a whole long, wonky conversation.
但我觉得 首先人们要意识到 现在是一个转折点
But I think it starts with people realizing that this is a turning point.
没错 我们需要新的同理心
And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.
我们必须意识到
We need to realize:
这是我们国家所需要的
this is what our country needs,
这是我们所需要的 如果你不想…
and this is what you need if you don’t want to —
如果你还想让未来4年过得像去年那样
Raise your hand if you want to spend the next four years
充满怨气和担心 请举手示意
as angry and worried as you’ve been for the last year — raise your hand.
如果你想拜摆脱这种情况
So if you want to escape from this,
可以读读佛经 圣经 或者沉思录
read Buddha, read Jesus, read Marcus Aurelius.
它们可以教你 摆脱恐惧
They have all kinds of great advice for how to drop the fear,
改变观念
reframe things,
不要把他人视作敌人
stop seeing other people as your enemy.
古代先贤留下了很多关于同理心的智慧
There’s a lot of guidance in ancient wisdom for this kind of empathy.
最后一个问题
CA: Here’s my last question:
在个人层面 我们该如何挽救分裂的美国呢
Personally, what can people do to help heal?
要克服根深蒂固的偏见确实很难
JH: Yeah, it’s very hard to just decide to overcome your deepest prejudices.
有研究表明
And there’s research showing
在当今社会
that political prejudices are deeper and stronger than race prejudices
政治偏见比种族歧视更深
in the country now.
所以 我觉得个人必须要努力 这是重点
So I think you have to make an effort — that’s the main thing.
努力去认识些不同的人
Make an effort to actually meet somebody.
可能你的表哥 你姐夫就持不同政见
Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,
去认识些对方党派的人
somebody who’s on the other side.
所以 在大选后
So, after this election —
等过个一两周
wait a week or two,
因为刚结束时 两党中的一方可能比较难过
because it’s probably going to feel awful for one of you —
但过个两周 你就可以尝试接触对方 了解对方
but wait a couple weeks, and then reach out and say you want to talk.
在此之前
And before you do it,
读读卡耐基的”怎样赢得朋友及影响他人”
read Dale Carnegie, “How to Win Friends and Influence People” —
我是认真的
I’m totally serious.
可以学到很多交流的技巧
You’ll learn techniques if you start by acknowledging,
比如 开场白可以说
if you start by saying,
“你知道的 我们之间可能又不少差别
“You know, we don’t agree on a lot,
但鲍勃叔叔 您有一点特别让我敬佩”
but one thing I really respect about you, Uncle Bob,”
或是 “你们保守派有一点让我敬佩…”
or “… about you conservatives, is … “
这样就能开启有效交流
And you can find something.
以赞美作为开场白 就能出现奇效
If you start with some appreciation, it’s like magic.
这是我学到的重点之一
This is one of the main things I’ve learned
我把它用到我的人际交往中
that I take into my human relationships.
虽然我还是会犯很多愚蠢的错误
I still make lots of stupid mistakes,
但现在我越来越勇于认错
but I’m incredibly good at apologizing now,
并勇于承认对方是正确的
and at acknowledging what somebody was right about.
如果你这样做了
And if you do that,
那么对话的氛围就会很好 而且会很有趣
then the conversation goes really well, and it’s actually really fun.
乔 跟你聊天真的很愉快
CA: Jon, it’s absolutely fascinating speaking with you.
我们所处的这片国土
It really does feel like the ground that we’re on
确实正被各种道德与人性的问题所困扰
is a ground populated by deep questions of morality and human nature.
你的见解非常中肯
Your wisdom couldn’t be more relevant.
谢谢你和我们共度这段时光
Thank you so much for sharing this time with us.
谢谢克里斯
JH: Thanks, Chris.
谢谢大家
JH: Thanks, everyone.